[Balance] Slip's Boomkin Theorycrafting (7.2.5+)

[Polarthief]

You have to come up with a BIS list for a 8/10 Mythic guild?

I mean, I don't really care and I'm not going to question it, but they seem to want to be more serious.

Plus they also had a HUGE roster problem around when I joined. Nearly half the raid just exploded and we also lost the last 3 weeks (we totally could have gotten Gul'dan, but burnout and all). *shrug*

Regardless, yes. They want BIS lists.

[Slippykins]

Curious about a few of the gear choices from your "BiS list"; I'm assuming some of them intentionally have Crit/Vers to make sure we don't dip too low on them?

Just asking because Guild's now asking for a BiS list and I went through each slot's choices; some of the ones on your list just seemed weird in comparison to some potential choices *shrug*

The pieces are chosen mostly to maximise mastery then haste. Crit and vers are unfortunate stats we have to pick up along the way.

You have to come up with a BIS list for a 8/10 Mythic guild?

Chill.

[Deleted]

I mean, I don't really care and I'm not going to question it, but they seem to want to be more serious.

Plus they also had a HUGE roster problem around when I joined. Nearly half the raid just exploded and we also lost the last 3 weeks (we totally could have gotten Gul'dan, but burnout and all). *shrug*

Regardless, yes. They want BIS lists.

Thats fair enough, was asking as I am the GM of a 8/10 mythic guild my self and i haven't even thought about things like that.
Might be something I will have to look into.

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The pieces are chosen mostly to maximise mastery then haste. Crit and vers are unfortunate stats we have to pick up along the way.



Chill.

Chill? What? About what?

[Slippykins]

Curious about a few of the gear choices from your "BiS list"; I'm assuming some of them intentionally have Crit/Vers to make sure we don't dip too low on them?

Just asking because Guild's now asking for a BiS list and I went through each slot's choices; some of the ones on your list just seemed weird in comparison to some potential choices *shrug*

Thats fair enough, was asking as I am the GM of a 8/10 mythic guild my self and i haven't even thought about things like that.
Might be something I will have to look into.

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Chill? What? About what?

Sorry, misinterpreted you. I thought you were giving Polarthief shit.

[Deleted]

Nothing changes: same builds, same stats. Haste/mastery, Inc/BotA/NB for ST and SotF/ShS/SD for AoE.

Thanks man!

[Polarthief]

The pieces are chosen mostly to maximise mastery then haste.

Is that where we are now? Interesting... Even if we're still doing ST (2P T19)?

What would you say, using this ideal, is a fairly optimal level of Haste then? 20%? 25%? (assume OI/LATC/IFE/SOTA for Legendaries and SL, SOTF [Inc when SOTA], ShS, SD if Haste matters for any of that; deffo no ED ever)

Also, if we weren't going to use 2P T19 (some situation or build arises where you never SS or the Titanforging is just too stronk, just whatever it's a hypothetical), I assume we'd use the cloak from Goroth (Haste > Mastery) and the shoulder from Harjatan (Haste > Mastery)? Or would we shift around a few tier pieces so maybe we could use off-tier Chest (Haste > Mastery) since it's a higher budget slot?

Sorry, misinterpreted you. I thought you were giving Polarthief shit.

TBH I felt more like he was trolling my guild, which is totally fair since I find it very odd we're suddenly gonna do BiS listing. I guess we might have had some problems with loot? I'm out of the loop with my raid teams since I haven't been playing a co-GM/Officer role *shrug*.

[Slippykins]

Is that where we are now? Interesting... Even if we're still doing ST (2P T19)?

What would you say, using this ideal, is a fairly optimal level of Haste then? 20%? 25%? (assume OI/LATC/IFE/SOTA for Legendaries and SL, SOTF [Inc when SOTA], ShS, SD if Haste matters for any of that; deffo no ED ever)

Also, if we weren't going to use 2P T19 (some situation or build arises where you never SS or the Titanforging is just too stronk, just whatever it's a hypothetical), I assume we'd use the cloak from Goroth (Haste > Mastery) and the shoulder from Harjatan (Haste > Mastery)? Or would we shift around a few tier pieces so maybe we could use off-tier Chest (Haste > Mastery) since it's a higher budget slot?

I would go for 20-30% haste but that's pure speculation.

[wewe]

Is the 7-8% increase only for the 4P T20 effect or is it the combined increase for both of the T20 effects ?

[Slippykins]

Is the 7-8% increase only for the 4P T20 effect or is it the combined increase for both of the T20 effects ?

Only the 4pc T20 effect. 2pc + 4pc is both bonuses (T20) together.

[wewe]

Only the 4pc T20 effect. 2pc + 4pc is both bonuses (T20) together.

Thanks, I thought the 2p + 4p was 2p T19 and 4p T20.

[Slippykins]

Thanks, I thought the 2p + 4p was 2p T19 and 4p T20.

I've had a few people say that, I might clarify it in the post.

[earthwormjim]

I've had a few people say that, I might clarify it in the post.

What is the point of sim'ing 4p in a vacuum like that? You can't use it without 2p.

[Kluian05]

What is the point of sim'ing 4p in a vacuum like that? You can't use it without 2p.

Just to see how much the power gain is worth.

[Slippykins]

What is the point of sim'ing 4p in a vacuum like that? You can't use it without 2p.

Just to see how much the power gain is worth.

Correct, this. It's to value the bonus itself. I always report the combined bonus afterward. Important for marginal decisions like, "I currently have 2pc, how much DPS will I get from equipping the 4pc bonus?"

[earthwormjim]

Correct, this. It's to value the bonus itself. I always report the combined bonus afterward. Important for marginal decisions like, "I currently have 2pc, how much DPS will I get from equipping the 4pc bonus?"

The 2p+4p number when compared with the 2p number shows this. Doesn't seem like a valid data point to me, especially when some 2p sets can interact with 4p.

Minor gripe really, just seems like a waste of time to display and sim it like that, since it is an impossibility.

I appreciate all the work you do regardless, don't mean to sound harsh.

[Slippykins]

The 2p+4p number when compared with the 2p number shows this. Doesn't seem like a valid data point to me, especially when 2p can interact with 4p.

Minor gripe really, just seems like a waste of time to display and sim it like that, since it is an impossibility.

I appreciate all the work you do regardless, don't mean to sound harsh.

Understandable, I just wanted it there for completeness.

[thedeisel]

Correct, this. It's to value the bonus itself. I always report the combined bonus afterward. Important for marginal decisions like, "I currently have 2pc, how much DPS will I get from equipping the 4pc bonus?"

Sorry, this is super nitpicky. I get that you just might want to see what the 4pc is worth for fun. But it's not something that can affect decision making in game not even in the 'marginal' sense you listed. The 'marginal decision' you listed is not "how much DPS will I get from equipping the 4pc bonus", it's "how much DPS will I get from equipping the 2pc+4pc bonus", as earthwormjim was saying.

After all, the value of the the 4pc bonus is not the same as the value of the 2pc+4pc bonuses minus the value of the 2pc bonus. That's because they bonuses multiply through one another. 2pc allows starsurges to hit harder. 4pc allows more starsurges. If our bonuses were something like, 2pc = Sunfire damage increased by X% and 4pc = Moonfire damage increased by Y% then the bonuses would just be additive. So, if 2pc allows our starsurges to hit 10% harder and 4pc allows us to cast 10% more starsurges (and starsurge accounts for say 35% of our damage), then 2pc is worth a 3.5% increase. 4pc on its own is also worth a 3.5% increase. But 2pc+4pc is not worth a 7% increase in this hypothetical. It's worth 7.35% So, the marginal increase from 2pc to 4pc in game is not 3.5% but 3.85% because it's not an increase from 2pc to 4pc but from 2pc to 2pc+4pc.

I totally get that you appreciate that point but just to clarify, the reason to sim 4pc without 2pc is just for funsies/the sake of knowing. Not for anything in game.

edit: also you guys just had that discussion much more quickly than i could type it out, lol

[Gemini Soul]

Understandable, I just wanted it there for completeness.

I like being able to see 20-2 20-4 20-2/4 gains likes that, so i know how much increase they give by them selves and together.


Wonder if SS will get a buff again once people loose their 19-4 and blizz sees the numbers.

[Slippykins]

Sorry, this is super nitpicky. I get that you just might want to see what the 4pc is worth for fun. But it's not something that can affect decision making in game not even in the 'marginal' sense you listed. The 'marginal decision' you listed is not "how much DPS will I get from equipping the 4pc bonus", it's "how much DPS will I get from equipping the 2pc+4pc bonus", as earthwormjim was saying.

After all, the value of the the 4pc bonus is not the same as the value of the 2pc+4pc bonuses minus the value of the 2pc bonus. That's because they bonuses multiply through one another. 2pc allows starsurges to hit harder. 4pc allows more starsurges. If our bonuses were something like, 2pc = Sunfire damage increased by X% and 4pc = Moonfire damage increased by Y% then the bonuses would just be additive. So, if 2pc allows our starsurges to hit 10% harder and 4pc allows us to cast 10% more starsurges (and starsurge accounts for say 35% of our damage), then 2pc is worth a 3.5% increase. 4pc on its own is also worth a 3.5% increase. But 2pc+4pc is not worth a 7% increase in this hypothetical. It's worth 7.35% So, the marginal increase from 2pc to 4pc in game is not 3.5% but 3.85% because it's not an increase from 2pc to 4pc but from 2pc to 2pc+4pc.

I totally get that you appreciate that point but just to clarify, the reason to sim 4pc without 2pc is just for funsies/the sake of knowing. Not for anything in game.

edit: also you guys just had that discussion much more quickly than i could type it out, lol

Correct, as I said, it's just for valuation and completeness. Measuring its benefit in a vacuum understates it somewhat (though you could just as well attribute the synergies to T20 2pc) but that understatement is small. Apologies if it caused confusion.

[Gemini Soul]

@Slippykins Has T19 2/4 vs T20 2/4 of equal ilvl been simmed for comparison?