Subtlety PvP 7.2.5

[Deleted]

And u still lose against no skill Class like Pala Retry or DK.....PvP is still S**T have a more complex class don't make it better,u still get steamrolled by brainless DMG spam class.

Yeah it was like that since wrath, old news.

[honung]

Haven't had the chance to do more than a few BGs yet, but while the spec functions well mechanically I hate the way it does damage. Gloomblade and Shadowstrike do way too much damage, especially Gloomblade, and Eviscerate does too little. This is because they ruined the stat template. Subtlety now has 1800 mastery and almost 15,000 crit. Eviscerate is doing roughly the same damage as it did in 7.2 while Gloomblade is doing 450k crits out of Dance. How the hell is Gloomblade doing almost as much damage as Eviscerate?

[xHyperr]

Rogue
Subtlety
PvP template Agility reduced by 5%

[Deleted]

lmao they really can't last a day without nerfing rogues in some way can't they

[Terahertz]

5% reduced agility isn't that much. Just hope they won't nerf sub even more.

Haven't had the chance to do more than a few BGs yet, but while the spec functions well mechanically I hate the way it does damage. Gloomblade and Shadowstrike do way too much damage, especially Gloomblade, and Eviscerate does too little. This is because they ruined the stat template. Subtlety now has 1800 mastery and almost 15,000 crit. Eviscerate is doing roughly the same damage as it did in 7.2 while Gloomblade is doing 450k crits out of Dance. How the hell is Gloomblade doing almost as much damage as Eviscerate?

Because Gloomblade ignores armor and has 32% increased crit damage through an artifact trait. It negating armor though is the biggest reason.

I think the playstyle is fine. I'd much rather Gloomblade and Shadowstrike do the same damage as Eviscerate while Eviscerate is essentially free energy-wise and has increased crit chance. It's a balanced dynamic IMO.

[Orpheus66]

It really does show you how little they care about PvP. I mean I can understand in a PvE situation people used the spec in a way that was unexpected because of just how much gear is out there. However this is PvP where everything is controlled under a template and you don't even have to worry about trinkets.

The only reasons why they reduced Rogue agility (expect more tuning IMHO) is because,

1) the testers are fucking morons and don't know how to properly play Rogue in PvP situations and were inadequately testing Rogues,
2) they never fully tested Rogues properly till they moved onto something else they felt was more important
3) they are both 1 & 2

[Deleted]

This sounds like how rogue was in cata, almost negligible damage outside of dance, but if you got stuck into a full kidney and started hearing the squelching of shadow blades u know u were fucked beyond saving.

Shadow Blades didn't exist in Cataclysm :>

[kalaratic]

gave the spec a try for the first time this patch. just wanted to say who ever was giving feedback since launch, good job on finally getting through to them. it really feels like we are nearing the final intended version for legion subtlety.

[Rankstar]

gave the spec a try for the first time this patch. just wanted to say who ever was giving feedback since launch, good job on finally getting through to them. it really feels like we are nearing the final intended version for legion subtlety.

my face when the intended version for legion subtlety is basically wod sub with minor differences.

[kalaratic]

my face when the intended version for legion subtlety is basically wod sub with minor differences.

the way it should always be

[Deleted]

I like sub a lot currently (pvp and pve), but in pvp its obviously a little bit overtuned. moar nerfs are comin' :-(

[Rankstar]

I like sub a lot currently (pvp and pve), but in pvp its obviously a little bit overtuned. moar nerfs are comin' :-(

blasphemy. shun the non believer.

[Terahertz]

I like sub a lot currently (pvp and pve), but in pvp its obviously a little bit overtuned. moar nerfs are comin' :-(

Are they really? It's not like the ladders are filled with rogues atm.

[Deleted]

Are they really? It's not like the ladders are filled with rogues atm.

/cast !Stealth

[Deleted]

Are they really? It's not like the ladders are filled with rogues atm.

Its indeed quite hard, but we will see a lot of DFA sub rogues in the tournaments. It requires flawless burst management. Tbh the new rogue is released since 1 day, what are you talking about ladders xD.

[lolpve]

The class feels a lot like late-cata now, and I guess new rogues won't really be familiar with that playstyle and the loss of evis damage will bother them. Back in cata ambush and evis were basically equivalent, damage out of dance was ok but it was brutal burst during dance since ambush hit so hard.

I also like how setting up a good dance is quite tricky now, it's not just about doing a pve rotation. Trying to weave setup buffs around stuns and then dance just before DFA lands to fit in as many shadowstrikes as possible into dance, it raises the skillcap a lot.

[Tyrannica]

The irony of this eviscerate vs shadowstrike talk is, in wpvp eviscerate does a lot more dmg than anything else, i got 1,5mio -2 mio crits with that and it deletes people instantly afther your first few shadowstrikes. While in instanced its just a filler.

Apart from the design we still have to bother with the pvp templates and its more harsh on rogues than any other class. I bet, -5% agility on our old template for subs is just a start.

Yeah dmg, got up and burst, but thats stuff other classes always had in legion, however our burst is very limited if you specced into it with just a few charges left. My kill quote still got higher in bgs at least.

But there is still something missing and i call out it: "prep".

From a design point of view, there is still lacking prep, otherwise there is no reasion why a rogue should not be a high priority target in arenas. With prep, in previous expansions, people tend to ignore us and it felt good, especially in those dreaded 2s skirmishes with random double melee cleave setups, feels odd that my affliction lock alt, who is weak vs melee cleaves got a way easier time there to win against the odds

e.g. your random mate dieing in less than 10 secs, because he is runing into them before you could do a sap and is a .e.g shadow priest and you face a handycap match - my affliction lock won there where my sub would have not much of a chance and i am 100% sure its cause of the pvp template and not just the teleport gate. ;>

[Illana]

Shadow Blades didn't exist in Cataclysm :>

ooo right, that was mop.

Still I think what I said was relevant

[shoegazing]

And u still lose against no skill Class like Pala Retry or DK.....PvP is still S**T have a more complex class don't make it better,u still get steamrolled by brainless DMG spam class.

I don't have problems with any of the above. Sounds like you need to try a different strategy if they are giving you trouble.

[Terahertz]

I really hope Blizzard doesn't nerf sub rogue the incorrect way. I think the biggest problem right now is how easy and frequently you can set up your burst.

The current damage is comparable to wotlk damage where rogues did 3-5k on targets with 27-31k hp. The main difference however is that in wrath you only had an energy pool of 110 (or 120) energy, 10 energy/s and no other ways to get back energy besides from finisher moves. Compared to now where we have an energy pool of 150, get back >13< energy/s, gain 8 energy every 4-5th AA, have a 50% chance to get back 5+ energy every time we Backstab/Ambush, have a 30s cooldown that gives us 40 energy, and have a 1 min CD that gives us back 30 energy over 6 seconds and makes the next 3 finishers free of cost, thus giving us energy back.

I think the proper way to tone down sub's strength is to first nerf the baseline energy regen per second in PvP from 12 to the standard 10 (without Vigor) and to look into toning down Symbols of Death and Goremaw's Bite's energy regeneration capabilities. That way our damage, burst capabilities and playstyle stay exactly the same. We'd just have to manage our energy just a bit more carefully.

If they end up gutting our damage, we'll just be going back to previous patch's playstyle where we spam abilities that hit like wet noodles.