Power Loss in 7.2.5 - Accompanying Boss Nerfs?

[shaunika123]

Nope they didn't. The point is, you do not increase relative difficulty of the content current or past over time, if you reduce player power, you also change the content correspondingly, see stat squish and compensatory "legacy content" invisible buff allowing players to solo old content post squish, bosses were also nerfed or their abilities removed in the past if their old design collided with the "new and improved" class changes, for example removing shear from black temple's illidan in wotlk pre-patch to offset changes to tank classes.

When in 7.0 mythic Archimonde became harder and guilds that facerolled him on farm before the patch started wiping again, he was nerfed overnight. There is just no gain from pissing off players so Blizzard rather errs on the side of overnerfing (I remember the prepatch on wednesday HFC was "a tad bit harder" while on thursday it became a joke).

No one really has any argument to "disagree" with the above, all they have to say is "it's still gonna be relatively easier than pre 7.2" or "you don't deserve the kill anyway nyah nyah nyah" none of these are really relevant to the point, if you nerf player power you nerf the content, that is kinda what players got used to and you don't go backwards on that.

In the same manner as players are used to be able to collect achievements and when they found out they "missed" the achievement in the DK class mount questline they got annoyed and Blizzard removed it, because people expected if there is an achievement, you should always be able to go back and retry it.

The same reason why there was so much outrage about "mobs scaling to ilvl" it wasn't about "players not able to kill quest mobs" but about the philosophy, you don't take away player progression throughout the ladder of "becoming more powerful", so in the end they backed off a lot on it.

Blizzard has no reason to deliberately piss off playerbase, if they didn't plan to adjust the content that would be only because of oversight / lack of resources to deal with it during busy patch period, but since they posted on twitter they have intention of doing so, it means they're aware and can spare the manpower to deal with it.

No one really "loses" anything if the content is nerfed, for people who have it on farm, they spend less time rekilling it, for people who didn't kill it, they can attempt one last ditch effort to push. No one gains anything either from content becoming randomly harder (even if just by tiny bit). I'm yet to see someone saying any argument what's the point of making the content even slightly harder in the last week.

You'd see they were very careful with taking away player power and player progression status, they often put as a reasoning of not nerfing something OP (disc in previous expansions, shadow in EN, guardian druid in NH) that they don't want to take away progress players made while relying on strats utilizing that specific spec.

They did blunder in Legion with changing some bosses post-world first kill while others were progressing on it (Ilgynoth, Star Augur), but that was because after these world first guilds killed the boss Blizzard realized the big fuckup they made with boss tuning (Ilgynoth being zergable in 1 eye phase, Star Augur being able to be done with 1 tank 2 healers), that kind of changes are a last resort though, but the bosses should never have gone live in that state (and Helya shouldn't be able to be bugged / exploited, however not everything always goes as planned).

but you're still missing the point,

nerfing the bosses for the offchance that you only run classes that are being nerfed
is just dumb

and no guilds didnt wipe on archimonde cos he got harder, they wiped on him cos they sucked and couldnt adapt to the class changes overnight
we had no more problem killing him the day after 7.0 released than the previous billion times


and as i said

unless your raid is literally nothing but frost DKs who cant for some reason go unholy, you'll probably be doing more damage overall.

seriously like 90% of the dps specs are either staying the same or getting buffed
there's literally no way you're overall getting nerfed.

[Marrilaife]

seriously like 90% of the dps specs are either staying the same or getting buffed
there's literally no way you're overall getting nerfed.

A lot of set bonuses get nerfed in the patch, some legendaries get nerfed, draught gets nerfed, classes don't operate in a void separate from the gear they wear.

[shaunika123]

A lot of set bonuses get nerfed in the patch, some legendaries get nerfed, draught gets nerfed, classes don't operate in a void separate from the gear they wear.

even with the harsh setbonus nerfs my class is gonna do like 30k more dps(and waaay more if i just swap specs) and my class is probably getting the harshest ones (assa rogue), they go down from an overall ~11% dmg increase to a ~5% dmg increase


as i said, some classes MIGHT do less damage, but overall your damage will go up.
you'll see.

if they dont kill guldan next week it's not gonna be because of the patch, or if it is, it's because they cant adapt to change, not because they got nerfed

seriously, tell me which class will do less dps in 7.2.5 cos i actually doubt there'll be any

edit: apparently WWs are being nerfed, so that one WW guy you might have will do like 10k less
you'd need 3 WWs in the raid for every rogue and it'd still be even

[Inukenshin]

what power loss?

[Creraria]

A lot of set bonuses get nerfed in the patch, some legendaries get nerfed, draught gets nerfed, classes don't operate in a void separate from the gear they wear.

draught nerf is irrelevant.

[Toybox]

This is now live - Gul'dan's health has been reduced by 3% on Heroic and Mythic difficulties.
Additionally, the damage of Gul'dan's Fel Scythe, Krosus' Searing Brand, and several of Star Augur's abilities has been reduced by 15%.

So, Prot Warriors are OP for a week or so in Nighthold, and are quickly brought into line.

Druids are OP for an entire raid tier, and when they get nerfed, all sustained magic damage gets nerfed along with it, even though Guardian Druids are arguably the strongest tanks for said mechanics even without Mark of Ursol.

Now I'm not usually one to call favouritism, but...

[Nitros14]

It's silly that they nerfed Fel Scythe just so that monks and druids didn't have to take a pull to learn how to trigger it like demonhunter/dk had to.

[Toybox]

It's silly that they nerfed Fel Scythe just so that monks and druids didn't have to take a pull to learn how to trigger it like demonhunter/dk had to.

Yup. I mean, I popped them all on progress anyway, so /shrug.

Best of luck with the kill @Saybel. Do it for Bladefist

[Saybel]

It's silly that they nerfed Fel Scythe just so that monks and druids didn't have to take a pull to learn how to trigger it like demonhunter/dk had to.

DK's don't have to trigger it :/ I solo all of mine.

[KaPe]

Pretty tame changes, but they should keep things roughly the same. Kinda strange they didn't make that 3% nerf universal, but I guess individual achievements aren't going away so other bosses aren't considered important. Plus it's doubtful someone whose 8/10 would have a reasonable chance at 10/10 within a week.

[VarianceWoW]

But the T19 set changes have been only in the last few weeks, so it kind of has snuck up on us

This is the first patch where

A) Progress doesn't end when the patch is released
While - B) Player power decreases roughly across the board.
.

If by first you mean exactly the same as the 7.1 and 7.1.5 release cycle we saw in EN/ToV and into NH? The day 7.2 came out most people who could look at a calender and add the broken shore campaign weeks onto the current date would have figured out a ToS release would occur between June 13th and June 27th. Like I get it I have two friends still trying to kill Guldan this week for CE, it sucks being in that position not gonna tell you oh you should have cleared faster or something like that. I get that there are guilds at all levels and expectations of progression and if your guild took a hit this tier and finished slower than expected well you aren't alone there either, Nighthold was rough for many many guilds of all different levels. But to act as if this is all coming as a surprise is fairly ridiculous and hard to take seriously as a complaint.

[Alvito]

But the T19 set changes have been only in the last few weeks, so it kind of has snuck up on us

This is the first patch where

A) Progress doesn't end when the patch is released
While - B) Player power decreases roughly across the board.

I wouldn't be making this thread if progress stopped next week and my guild just didn't get cutting edge, that's fine. I don't see why the raid should arbitrarily be harder on the last week though - generally a new patch has always entailed the end of progress for said tier. There are always guilds that get progress kills on the last week of patch and it's not really a complicated change to make.

Progress does stop when the raids move on to newer ones. If you are worried about the loss of set bonuses you are about to get more to play with and for some classes the ability to stack 2 great 2 sets or a 2 and 4 set combo. The changes are only changing one week of the raid while it is current and if you did come down to the wire like that then it is safe to say gear isn't why you didn't finish the raid.

[Saybel]

Progress does stop when the raids move on to newer ones. If you are worried about the loss of set bonuses you are about to get more to play with and for some classes the ability to stack 2 great 2 sets or a 2 and 4 set combo. The changes are only changing one week of the raid while it is current and if you did come down to the wire like that then it is safe to say gear isn't why you didn't finish the raid.

We still have raids left to finish the tier - and the nerfs are in place now anyway. What's the point of talking about it any further?

[Alvito]

We still have raids left to finish the tier - and the nerfs are in place now anyway. What's the point of talking about it any further?

If all the previous buffs to our weapons, nerfs to bosses, thousands of loot drops and months of time weren't enough this last week changes aren't why your group won't be 10/10. If you really want to go back and finish it once it is done and over you still can. I am going to go out on a limb and say you weren't here crying when your entire raids weapons got buffed from what they were. As I said before if you haven't finished NH yet gear isn't the reason why.

[Saybel]

If all the previous buffs to our weapons, nerfs to bosses, thousands of loot drops and months of time weren't enough this last week changes aren't why your group won't be 10/10. If you really want to go back and finish it once it is done and over you still can. I am going to go out on a limb and say you weren't here crying when your entire raids weapons got buffed from what they were. As I said before if you haven't finished NH yet gear isn't the reason why.

Your statement makes no sense. Of course I don't complain when the content receives a relative nerf and of course I complain when it receives a relative buff - my guild needed 7.2 to ever have a shot at 10/10. I never made the claim, EVER in this thread that my guild's 10/10 hinged on whether blizzard nerfed or buffed the content in 7.2.5 which is what I opened the thread about - I simply expressed my concern that the content was getting harder when that doesn't seem to be blizzard's aim.

No, this entire thread has been people projecting things on to me that I've never claimed or said to fuel their own ego and elitism because they can't invision of a world where a guild is worse then theirs and thus needs more time to clear the content. I only claimed it would be arbitarily harder due to the set bonus nerfs - other people claimed I was wrong, I may or I may not have been but many people in my raid expressed concern that they were being nerfed and I made a forum post to bring up a discussion about it (and also tweeted WarcraftDevs) to see if we could have a blizzard stance on it.

Honestly the elitism on these forums disgusts me, the word "nerf" is treated as a player asking for an easier time or people try to claim that because I ask if one is planned/required that I am blaming my guild's lack of progress on the fact that the content isn't nerfed enough, both are unequivocally false.

[Alvito]

Your statement makes no sense. Of course I don't complain when the content receives a relative nerf and of course I complain when it receives a relative buff - my guild needed 7.2 to ever have a shot at 10/10. I never made the claim, EVER in this thread that my guild's 10/10 hinged on whether blizzard nerfed or buffed the content in 7.2.5 which is what I opened the thread about - I simply expressed my concern that the content was getting harder when that doesn't seem to be blizzard's aim.

No, this entire thread has been people projecting things on to me that I've never claimed or said to fuel their own ego and elitism because they can't invision of a world where a guild is worse then theirs and thus needs more time to clear the content. I only claimed it would be arbitarily harder due to the set bonus nerfs - other people claimed I was wrong, I may or I may not have been but many people in my raid expressed concern that they were being nerfed and I made a forum post to bring up a discussion about it (and also tweeted WarcraftDevs) to see if we could have a blizzard stance on it.

Honestly the elitism on these forums disgusts me, the word "nerf" is treated as a player asking for an easier time or people try to claim that because I ask if one is planned/required that I am blaming my guild's lack of progress on the fact that the content isn't nerfed enough, both are unequivocally false.

Calling a spade a spade doesn't make you an elitist. Pointing out the several buffs that got you to this point and that if you are still progressing in a several month old raid gear isn't the issue isn't elitist. Good news next week you can get more gear and power back up and go back and finish it if you so desire. All the content isn't for all the people, there isn't any reason to get upset over that or think others are out to get you when that is pointed out. Blizzard tunes the game around the most current content and nerfing 2 or 4 sets in an old raid so they aren't too strong in a new one isn't a crazy idea. The did also lower bosses life again and do other things to help groups in the spot you are currently in.

[Umbrex]

Your statement makes no sense. Of course I don't complain when the content receives a relative nerf and of course I complain when it receives a relative buff - my guild needed 7.2 to ever have a shot at 10/10. I never made the claim, EVER in this thread that my guild's 10/10 hinged on whether blizzard nerfed or buffed the content in 7.2.5 which is what I opened the thread about - I simply expressed my concern that the content was getting harder when that doesn't seem to be blizzard's aim.

No, this entire thread has been people projecting things on to me that I've never claimed or said to fuel their own ego and elitism because they can't invision of a world where a guild is worse then theirs and thus needs more time to clear the content. I only claimed it would be arbitarily harder due to the set bonus nerfs - other people claimed I was wrong, I may or I may not have been but many people in my raid expressed concern that they were being nerfed and I made a forum post to bring up a discussion about it (and also tweeted WarcraftDevs) to see if we could have a blizzard stance on it.

Honestly the elitism on these forums disgusts me, the word "nerf" is treated as a player asking for an easier time or people try to claim that because I ask if one is planned/required that I am blaming my guild's lack of progress on the fact that the content isn't nerfed enough, both are unequivocally false.

honestly man, what did u expect? that we were going to have a healthy debate about how guilds who were at the brink of having breaking the curve: gul'dan were being discriminated against?

or that it didn't come through that was your motivation for making this post in the first place?

[Kazuchika]

"People don't have sympathy for me so they're elitist jerks" the thread

[Saybel]

The did also lower bosses life again and do other things to help groups in the spot you are currently in.

Exactly. Blizzard agrees with the point of view I originally suggested.

honestly man, what did u expect? that we were going to have a healthy debate about how guilds who were at the brink of having breaking the curve: gul'dan were being discriminated against?

or that it didn't come through that was your motivation for making this post in the first place?

Something like that. Discriminated wouldn't really be the world I would use though, inconvenienced is more like it.

"People don't have sympathy for me so they're elitist jerks" the thread

"People twist my words to make irrelevant statements separate from the issue raised in the thread because they want to imply people below them are bad" the thread

[Deleted]

Look all the raid snobs chiming in! So much ego stroking. It is possible to say "no they should not nerf it" without flexing your 10/10M epeen and calling anyone else a scrub. Only adds to the toxic nature of MMO-C.

My feelings are... Should they nerf some of the bosses if there is an aggregate nerf to player power? Yes. Will they? Probably not for one week of content.

Because it's not OK to disagree with the OP based on the insane power increases everyone have received with new traits?