Poll: Do you want Shadowstep back?

  1. #5881
    Quote Originally Posted by milkbonez View Post
    I'm still a bit confused, as one talent let's us do more 4x SS, improves our vanish which also helps with our leggo shoulders, while the other we're are definitely doing less SS's and not even doing more damage or anything. I'm very open to the possibility that i'm wrong here, if someone could just explain how shadow focus is better than subterfuge.
    Could be that this spec line is most forgiving/easy to set up.

    Other set-up with subterfuge/Dark Shadow you can dance starve, energy starve, and increased pressure to not fk up your dance windows because you can't recover them as easily. Just more riskier in general.

  2. #5882
    Quote Originally Posted by Clinkzthebonerogue View Post
    Could be that this spec line is most forgiving/easy to set up.

    Other set-up with subterfuge/Dark Shadow you can dance starve, energy starve, and increased pressure to not fk up your dance windows because you can't recover them as easily. Just more riskier in general.
    I'm not talking about the DS/ES row, just subterfuge vs. shadow focus

  3. #5883
    Deleted
    So whats best talent choices in each row now for sub?

  4. #5884
    Quote Originally Posted by Cysia View Post
    So whats best talent choices in each row now for sub?
    https://ravenholdt-tc.github.io/comb...rogue_t19.html
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2017-06-16 at 11:33 AM.

  5. #5885
    I simmed myself using latest nightly build and something like 2310022 was highest. Turns out many in discord also had that as best as well. That said, the top 5 were within ~7k so probably not that big a deal. Gloomblade build quote high as well. Took a SS of part of it but I'm lying in bed at the moment so if anyone is curious I can post a link.

  6. #5886
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    Dead link bro

  7. #5887
    https://riff.tf/guide/subtlety/#talents

    Still subject to change and still very much a WIP. People are trending towards Dark Shadows to try to line up the DfA with SoD and Finality and ShD for big crits (also fights being shorter favours DS over Alacrity). I, myself, have landed 8-9M Eviscerates. That said, I find you don't always land time it properly and the evisc is 'wasted', not to mention WM (possibly DfA itself is bugged?) sometimes lands you on a completely different target and causes you to be facing the wrong way so then it's completely wasted. With ToS coming out talents are like to change a bit but generally speaking you're ok with either a) WM or GB b)DS or Alacrity and c) MfD or DfA. This is, with bracers+mantle combo. I think you want to roll Subterfuge instead of SF if you're using boots. I think if you want something more consistent without the clunkiness of having to time a dance within a fraction of a second then roll with MfD otherwise have fun with phat crits.

  8. #5888
    Quote Originally Posted by milkbonez View Post
    I'm not talking about the DS/ES row, just subterfuge vs. shadow focus
    played around with it more. I think it's the fact that since Shadowstrike lost its teleport, Shadowfocus is the more reliable version of the legendary boots. The extra shadowstrike in subterfuge seems to be a lot more harder to execute because of what they did with relentless strikes /energetic stab (nerfed the energy spikes)

    So the energy return from shadow focus seems to overtake that extra shadowstrike and makes the rotation more smooth. It's not that shadowfocus is so dam good but it allows us to toss the boots away and use the wrists instead

    The legendary wrists were already good with high uptime on shadow blades but we could never take it because the energy regen from boots and power of shoulders were too good to pass up. So in theory we have absorbed the boots as a talent and now taken the next two best legendaries = shoulders/wrists

    - - - Updated - - -

    More energy from shadow focus = more energy to do the newly buffed backstab.

  9. #5889
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by milkbonez View Post
    I'm not talking about the DS/ES row, just subterfuge vs. shadow focus
    You're not taking into consideration the fact that with SF you save around 40 energy per dance (9 for evis, 10 for SS), which is more than one backstab

    idk if that's enough but there's definitely a DPS increase in there in energy saved. Also with subterfuge if you fuck up even one dance and only get 4 globals in, SF probably pulls ahead considerably. But then there are things like m+ where subterfuge is probably always better

  10. #5890
    On Riff guide he post there this opening

    Shadowstrike
    Backstab
    Nightblade
    Shadow Dance
    Shadowstrike
    Symbols of Death
    Shadowstrike
    Eviscerate
    Shadowstrike
    Backstab
    Vanish
    Death from Above, use Shadow Dance before the Eviscerate part hits

    but i cant even spamming the hotkey use shadow dance before the hit.

  11. #5891
    Practicing Sub in Heroic. Think I'm getting the hang of it - Krosus is a fight I feel like I played pretty well on. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done Any feedback? Some wasted Energy and CP, but that seems unavoidable in this spec.
    Ankleshanker, 110 Rogue, Aerie Peak US

  12. #5892
    I have no idea how to put Death from Above in my rotation, it's quite a jump from what i was used to. How better is it in comparison to the other talents in the roll?

  13. #5893
    Deleted
    looking forward to a good APL for 1212233 spec with shoulders+vigor ring

    the damage potential of DFA is insane in pve. AoE situations are improving the ST dps even further (shuriken storm stacks).

  14. #5894
    Quote Originally Posted by elprofessor View Post
    looking forward to a good APL for 1212233 spec with shoulders+vigor ring

    the damage potential of DFA is insane in pve. AoE situations are improving the ST dps even further (shuriken storm stacks).
    Sub's current ability to funnel AoE into single target DPS is disgusting. We kept the bloods in on Tichondrius today, and I was averaging 1.25M boss DPS as a result of the Shuriken Combo'd Eviscerates.
    Ankleshanker, 110 Rogue, Aerie Peak US

  15. #5895
    Quote Originally Posted by Won7on View Post
    Sub's current ability to funnel AoE into single target DPS is disgusting. We kept the bloods in on Tichondrius today, and I was averaging 1.25M boss DPS as a result of the Shuriken Combo'd Eviscerates.
    It's definitely something that I really appreciate Blizz doing haha. Funnelling is amazing and if you can line up all your buffs into a DfA it's just the grossest thing ever. Definitely makes up DPS for the lack of actual AOE we're doing.

  16. #5896
    Quote Originally Posted by Won7on View Post
    Practicing Sub in Heroic. Think I'm getting the hang of it - Krosus is a fight I feel like I played pretty well on. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done Any feedback? Some wasted Energy and CP, but that seems unavoidable in this spec.
    Practised hc yday as well

    It was fucking awesome!!

    Been a while since i topped the meter on almost every boss ...the whole time i was sitting with a smile on my face thinking: this plays so much better live than i could have ever hoper for, burriying sin rogues with similar gear and getting constant whisper bout playstyle from the other subs

    If i had a shadow of a doubt wether to swap, it has been deleted - only big changes to output this coming week can change my mind.

    And tes idd, the ability to convert aoe to st whith option of regening sd charges is so damn cool... I died due to stacking of plagies on ticho and managed to do 1.1mill +

    One thing tho: have to rebind ss/bs to a side mousebutton to avoid carpal tunnel lol

  17. #5897
    Talents: 1110013
    Legendaries: Mantle+Bracers

    My opening looks like this:
    (SB)SS->Bite->NB->(Dance)SS->(Symbols)SS->Evis->SS->(Vanish)SS->DfA(Dance)->SS->SS->Evis->SS

    During this opening I am pulling around 2m dps and after 4 minutes I am still at 1m dps. This is completely unbuffed on a boss puppet at ilvl913.

  18. #5898
    I don't get it, people are saying Dark Shadow build left and right, including Riff's guide, but all the data on WarcraftLogs pretty clearly shows a Shadow Focus - Enveloping Shadows - Master of Shadows build to be better on single target. Those talents are on average higher than their counterparts on virtually every fight: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...lents&region=3

    You can see the same if you look at the top 100 Sub parses on most fights: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...63&partition=3 Here's Star Augur

    Am I missing something? Dark Shadow - DFA build seems more complex AND performs worse. If you look at some AoE fights, it pulls ahead, but as far as I can tell, people are recommending it even on ST. Riff doesn't even mention Enveloping Shadows at all in his guide, only listing Dark Shadows and Alacrity as viable options.
    Ankleshanker, 110 Rogue, Aerie Peak US

  19. #5899
    I think we will have two possible builds in the future. The DS one and a more like the old one with constant dance uptime.
    For me personally the DS build is good in very short fights or fights where you excactly know how that fight will be. In other words i don't think that build will be good in progression because one mistake can ruin everything.
    As the patch went live i accidentally used the DS build from the guide because i was experimenting and in EN M i out dpsed another sub rogue who had the same itemlvl
    but used "the old build". It was not really much but as longer as the fight went on he came closer or even overtook. I don't know if i played that build 100% correct but i tried to do as much damage with dfa, sod and dance like a wod playstyle.

    DS build is very much like DH with their meta burst when it's ready and mantle buff is a huge gain for these burst windows.
    Lets see what the future brings.

  20. #5900
    It's because the current set bonus favors ES builds, which will change in a week. I didn't even bother with ES. Even if it should be better with T20 I'll still play DS because of personal preference.

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