Go-to-Spec in 7.2.5

[shaunika123]

don't act like you didn't edit that in.

it was already in your quote

i edited to elaborate but the basics were already in the basic post

please get off your high horse when you're obviously wrong

[Sephiroso]

Sims are showing that you basically only reroll when you have loaded dice for the guaranteed 2 buff. Outside of that never reroll is the best strat ( you can reroll GM but it's only a very minor dps increase avg). Sim have been pretty accurate with the reroll strat so far...

The main issue outside of the buff balance is that they change the 6 dice into a 5 dice this greatly reduce the chance of rolling 2 buff, rolling 3 buff doesn't exist anymore and rolling 5 buff is still a 1% chance. Since all buff are being balanced rerolling is now in avg a dps loss.

Ahh i see, well thanks for actually telling me where that thought was coming from unlike shaunika. I haven't kept up too much with the Outlaw API rolling rules so i wasn't aware of that. Honestly i think that works out for the best for outlaw, and i hope the balance remains as such that we don't have to depend on a single buff to do anything.

[Deleted]

I'm torn about what spec to play in ToS. The legendaries i have;
Sin
Bracers, Boots

Sub
Bracers

Outlaw
Bracers, Boots

All specs
Mantle, Insignia, Legs, Belt, Sephuzs

All specs have 52 traits, so i have options. Just tough to decide, sub changes look awesome and energy smoothing + RtB changes. Grrr too many options!

[Deleted]

Test them out and see what you like, more solid sims will be a few days off and hotfixes are likely incoming so i wont hedge My bets on current sims alone

[Won7on]

I'm torn about what spec to play in ToS. The legendaries i have;
Sin
Bracers, Boots

Sub
Bracers

Outlaw
Bracers, Boots

All specs
Mantle, Insignia, Legs, Belt, Sephuzs

All specs have 52 traits, so i have options. Just tough to decide, sub changes look awesome and energy smoothing + RtB changes. Grrr too many options!

You pretty much have all the legendaries needed to play anything. Currently, it's looking like the ideal setup will be Shoulders* + Bracers Sub for ST, and maybe some Outlaw if there are fights where sustained cleave/AoE matters (there rarely are - the typical raid requirements are Burst AoE and Priority Single-targeting).

* Barring any T19 2p + T20 4p shenanigans, where you couldn't use Shoulders, but that's an unrealistic scenario for most people

Assa is currently simming lower than Sub on ST, which means, even as a fan of Assassination, I see no reason to play it whatsoever. Sub has almost no barrier to target swapping (put up a NB and you're good), while literally every Assassination CD is a target debuff (TB, KB, Vendetta) that prevents easy target swaps.

Here are the only advantages I see Assa having, which might lead someone to play it over Subtlety:

• Multi-dotting? If there is a fight where you can consistently multi-dot (T20 allows multiple Garrotes), but the mobs are not within Blade Flurry range, Assassination could be better? This could maybe happen on Demonic Inquisition.
• Burst. Sub lacks burst, while Assassination's burst is still insane if you stack all the CDs. On short farm fights, or on Skorpyron-like situations where the boss takes 100% increased damage for 10-20 seconds, Assassination could still have the edge. Then again, Dark Shadows Sub could win out here as well.
• Cloak CD? 13 second shorter Cloak CD for Assassination could potentially matter in some very rare cases? Probably not tbh.
• Frequent boss downtime? If we're talking 10-15 seconds of downtime every 40 seconds, let's say, Assassination would handle that better than other specs since you could just refresh your DoTs and lose less DPS than a Sub or Outlaw Rogue (which do basically 0 when not at the boss). Fights like this aren't common, and when they exist, they encourage Ranged stacking anyway.

Otherwise, unless there are changes, or unless the sims (and the WarcraftLogs data I've seen from NH since the patch) are incorrect, Sub is gonna be my go-to in ToS.

[Deleted]

pretty disapointing logs so far, all rogue specs are the middle of the pack. some (sin) are on the worse half...

sub on top? if i look mythic krosus logs sin is the worst of all 3 rogue specs.

[Deleted]

pretty disapointing logs so far, all rogue specs are the middle of the pack. some (sin) are on the worse half...

sub on top? if i look mythic krosus logs sin is the worst of all 3 rogue specs.

Well, you need to consider T20 bonus, something nobody is using yet. That will tilt all for every class.

And then you can come up with conclussion.

Logic? Please...

[Geckoo]

I don't think that one week worth of logs with an already low sample from a raid we are about to consider old content is enough data to get an answer.

My experience after clearing mythic nighthold yesterday is that assassination is the best spec with the current gear that most of us have, optimized for agonizing poison: mastery, shoulders+boots, 2/3 MA relics... T20 will certainly bring some change, but i'm still not sure if this will mean swaping specs or just swaping assassination legendaries and relics.

[Deleted]

You pretty much have all the legendaries needed to play anything. Currently, it's looking like the ideal setup will be Shoulders* + Bracers Sub for ST, and maybe some Outlaw if there are fights where sustained cleave/AoE matters (there rarely are - the typical raid requirements are Burst AoE and Priority Single-targeting).

* Barring any T19 2p + T20 4p shenanigans, where you couldn't use Shoulders, but that's an unrealistic scenario for most people

Assa is currently simming lower than Sub on ST, which means, even as a fan of Assassination, I see no reason to play it whatsoever. Sub has almost no barrier to target swapping (put up a NB and you're good), while literally every Assassination CD is a target debuff (TB, KB, Vendetta) that prevents easy target swaps.

Here are the only advantages I see Assa having, which might lead someone to play it over Subtlety:

• Multi-dotting? If there is a fight where you can consistently multi-dot (T20 allows multiple Garrotes), but the mobs are not within Blade Flurry range, Assassination could be better? This could maybe happen on Demonic Inquisition.
• Burst. Sub lacks burst, while Assassination's burst is still insane if you stack all the CDs. On short farm fights, or on Skorpyron-like situations where the boss takes 100% increased damage for 10-20 seconds, Assassination could still have the edge. Then again, Dark Shadows Sub could win out here as well.
• Cloak CD? 13 second shorter Cloak CD for Assassination could potentially matter in some very rare cases? Probably not tbh.
• Frequent boss downtime? If we're talking 10-15 seconds of downtime every 40 seconds, let's say, Assassination would handle that better than other specs since you could just refresh your DoTs and lose less DPS than a Sub or Outlaw Rogue (which do basically 0 when not at the boss). Fights like this aren't common, and when they exist, they encourage Ranged stacking anyway.

Otherwise, unless there are changes, or unless the sims (and the WarcraftLogs data I've seen from NH since the patch) are incorrect, Sub is gonna be my go-to in ToS.

Sub burst is higher than assassination if you spec for it.

[Vishiz]

Spent a bit of time testing assassination and outlaw on mythic guldan, which i consider a fight that both specs have completely different roles on.
At the end of the day I ended up going with assassination because the downtime with flames, or having to run back to that annoying empowered eye was enough to crush your damage.
Any downtime with outlaw is just killer, it was the same with WW monk. Sure if you can sit on the boss you may have a fighting chance. But at the end of the day you usually cant, and that's where assassination pulls ahead. You can pop off a mutilate and have enough time to go to where you need to go without worrying about sitting on a ton of wasted energy and come back and pick up right where you left off.
If i had the sub legendaries I'd have given it a go, but I haven't played the spec all expac so testing it out on M guldan without them didn't seem wise.

Which brings me to my conclusion. With 7.2.5 it seems like assassination or sub will be the Go-to. And I seriously doubt you will see a whole lot of variance with either. If we're talking the difference of 1million dps and 1,050,000(simmed) dps it seems wiser to just play whichever spec is easier for progression so you can focus on perfecting mechanics and not your rotation.

[Arker42]

pretty disapointing logs so far, all rogue specs are the middle of the pack. some (sin) are on the worse half...

sub on top? if i look mythic krosus logs sin is the worst of all 3 rogue specs.

Krosus logs are a bit wonky for Sub due to the Shadow Satyr Walks being brokenly good against that bridge-hating torso boy.

Basically, Shadow Satyr Walks give you 3 Energy plus 1 Energy for each 5 yards from your opponent each time you Shadowstrike. The key here is that the distance is calculated from you to the target and NOT from you to the target's hitbox.

Enemies like Krosus have an expanded hitbox, which means that you are always counted as 15 yards from him for purposes of the Leg Boots. This results in a gain of 8 Energy (3+15/3) each time you Shadowstrike, which leads to huge energy gains.

Bottom-line is, Sub (w/ Leg Boots) is disproportionately powerful against Krosus and you should not rely solely on Krosus logs when evaluating rogue spec balance.

[Won7on]

Krosus logs are a bit wonky for Sub due to the Shadow Satyr Walks being brokenly good against that bridge-hating torso boy.

Basically, Shadow Satyr Walks give you 3 Energy plus 1 Energy for each 5 yards from your opponent each time you Shadowstrike. The key here is that the distance is calculated from you to the target and NOT from you to the target's hitbox.

Enemies like Krosus have an expanded hitbox, which means that you are always counted as 15 yards from him for purposes of the Leg Boots. This results in a gain of 8 Energy (3+15/3) each time you Shadowstrike, which leads to huge energy gains.

Bottom-line is, Sub (w/ Leg Boots) is disproportionately powerful against Krosus and you should not rely solely on Krosus logs when evaluating rogue spec balance.

Except like 95% of the top 100 Sub Rogues on Krosus are using Shoudlers + Bracers? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...&spec=Subtlety

[Deleted]

pretty disapointing logs so far, all rogue specs are the middle of the pack. some (sin) are on the worse half...

sub on top? if i look mythic krosus logs sin is the worst of all 3 rogue specs.

Wut? Sin is still topping Sub at Krosus in current logs. Besides, if you take every Boss into consideration current statistics show, Sub and Sin are pretty much on par in 90th and 95th percentiles. Logs for the last day:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=90&sample=1

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=95&sample=1

I dont get the panic tho. Sin felt pretty good during first night and i definitely had a dps increase although t19 got nerfed.

[elfporn]

Except like 95% of the top 100 Sub Rogues on Krosus are using Shoudlers + Bracers? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...&spec=Subtlety

Yea i thought that "boots are good" type of claim was dubious as well. Boots have been trash since they were nerfed(despite any expanded hitboxes on krosus or others). Only to be used if you lacked bracers.

[Arker42]

Except like 95% of the top 100 Sub Rogues on Krosus are using Shoudlers + Bracers? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...&spec=Subtlety

That's a new development. Boots were objectively god-tier back in 7.2 (check historic logs). With the changes, it looks like the Bracers now overshadow Boots a little. Still, boots appear decently competitive with Bracers for that fight.

Another huge factor to consider is the fact that Krosus is now a trivialized fight. During progression, Assassination has typically been favored for its ease of execution and low penalty for loss of uptime. During NH, even if Subtlety had identical theoretical DPS to Assassination, it would not have been favored during progress due to it being a more tricky and difficult to execute rotation. You had to fight twice as hard to put out the same numbers as Assassination, plus it required specific Legendaries.

Essentially, the point is that making balance judgments based on a completely trivialized fight is not a good approach, especially given that Krosus is basically an ideal fight for Subtlety (i.e., minimal movement, predictable mechanics, high uptime).

Overall, the Rankings between all three Rogues are extremely close in 7.2.5.

- - - Updated - - -

Yea i thought that "boots are good" type of claim was dubious as well. Boots have been trash since they were nerfed(despite any expanded hitboxes on krosus or others). Only to be used if you lacked bracers.

That is absurdly incorrect. Even after nerfs, boots were incredibly powerful, especially on big hitbox bosses: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...&spec=Subtlety

[Mamercus]

It's not so much that assassination can still do damage without having contact with the boss as much as that you can shift when you do damage around if you pool energy. As long as you empty your energy bar before the downtime starts, you'll generally have a full bar of rogue piss to use when you get back into contact with the boss, so you don't really lose nearly as much damage potential as with the other specs. Sub is like that also to some extent. Outlaw you do no meaningful damage without contact with the boss, although you can at least build some CP and use a finisher from range.

It depends on the nature of the mechanics in question. The other thing to consider is that there are some bosses that are hard and others that are easy. If the spec is great at the easiest bosses, it doesn't really matter other than for parsing to make yourself feel good and getting faster clears. If the spec is better at the boss that is currently blocking your progress, then it's a meaningful advantage. We don't really know yet which mythic bosses will present the biggest challenges on progress.

[Critical92]

Fights like Krosus favor the new Dark Shadow build from sub a lot. Before the bridge collapse you can spend all your energy, all your dances charges, even vanish for the juiciest dfa's and while you run around you recover your cd's between your well timed and executed dance burst.

Sub has a fresh new playstyle that people need to get the hang off, unlike assa that got a new cd that needs lucky pb procs while vendetta is up to top the meters.
With 7.2.5 sub got so much viable options. You can play constant dance, burst dance with dfa/mfd and even a gloomblade build could be possible.
Assa on the other hand got a lot more rng into it's damage. I think blizz shifted all this hated rng from outlaw into assa.

No PB procs inside TB while Vendetta equals a sad rogue.

[Varolyn]

Tbh I think all three rogues specs are going to be useful for progress. But I'm not quite sure if the DFA sub rogue build is going to be ideal for progress unless if there is some huge prio add that needs to die asap or some extreme damage check on a boss. One small lag spike while you're in the air and it's rip for that big eviscerate you tried so hard to set up.

[Deleted]

Tbh I think all three rogues specs are going to be useful for progress. But I'm not quite sure if the DFA sub rogue build is going to be ideal for progress unless if there is some huge prio add that needs to die asap or some extreme damage check on a boss. One small lag spike while you're in the air and it's rip for that big eviscerate you tried so hard to set up.

vigor ring + shoulders is the best overall legendary setup in my calcs.

with this setup a DFA build is going slightly better than MOS. Slightly means <1%. This 1% doesn't matter outside of the theoretical/mathematical environment. Even a sneeze of the player behind the screen costs more dps.

[Won7on]

Fights like Krosus favor the new Dark Shadow build from sub a lot. Before the bridge collapse you can spend all your energy, all your dances charges, even vanish for the juiciest dfa's and while you run around you recover your cd's between your well timed and executed dance burst.

Yeah, agreed. Doing 900k DPS by bursting really hard for 20 seconds, and then having 2 min of low DPS is just objectively better than doing a steady sustained 900k.

With burst gameplay, you can time your CDs for phases with no mechanics, or adds, or periods of increased DPS, or hell, even trinket/Concordance procs or something. And when you have to do mechanics in your "low DPS" phase, you don't really care.

I like the ES build, it's fast and fun to play on farm and stuff, but it cycles through like 1:10 of Shadow Blades uptime and 0:30 downtime. If you have to do any mechanics, it feels pretty crappy. Gonna learn to play Dark Shadow properly before next week so I can use it on progression.