Diplomat causes death of bicycle driver, doesn't get charged with anything

[StayTuned]

http://www.ksta.de/panorama/berlin-d...enzen-27801016

So basically, a Diplomat currently living in Berlin opened the door of his Porsche Cayenne (parked in an absolute no-stopping zone) without looking, hitting a bicycle driver and causing such grave head injuries that he eventually died.

Because the Diplomat is immune however, he isn't going to get charged with anything and the police is dropping the case.

Turns out the Diplomat is from Saudi Arabia, and they are currently refusing to make any statement whatsoever.


I think diplomatic immunity needs to be re-thought and changed. It cannot be that they have a free pass to commit crimes left and right because they are foreign diplomats. Protecting them from political prosecution is understandable, but in 2016 diplomats caused 22.816 road incidents in Germany. Most of them were unpaid tickets for minor speeding or wrong parking, but relatively speaking a lot of them were also DUI related incidents with 26 injuries. In 2015, they committed 80 accidents/crashes of which 50 were hit and run.

In 2004 (yea some years ago, but still) a Bulgarian diplomat killed a policeman while driving under the influence of alcohol and his "punishment" was to be sent back to Bulgaria. Ridiculous.

Discuss.

[Azadina]

It most definitely needs reworking. It's even more atrocious when the diplomats family is also given immunity, and members of said family go around committing crimes.

The only reason it really even exists the way it is, is because certain sorts of regimes would more than happily make up bogus charges against foreign diplomats, and then blackmail the other countries with it.

[Flarelaine]

Discuss.

Not much to discuss. If it is anything like parliamentary immunity, then traffic offences may not be even covered in the first place, but everyone is a wussy about prosecuting diplomats.

Like the US was with Erdogan's bodyguards. They waited weeks before bringing charges and now they're all safe home.

[StayTuned]

Not much to discuss. If it is anything like parliamentary immunity, then traffic offences may not be even covered in the first place, but everyone is a wussy about prosecuting diplomats.

Like the US was with Erdogan's bodyguards. They waited weeks before bringing charges and now they're all safe home.

Negligent homicide shouldn't be covered through any kind of immunity.


The USA should not have allowed Erdogan's bodyguards to leave the country, but because (as you said) everyone is so afraid about prosecuting diplomats, they tend to misbehave on a regular basis whenever they are in a foreign country.

[s_bushido]

I'm sorry, in what way is accidentally opening your car door at the wrong time even remotely "negligent homicide?"

[Firatha]

I'm sorry, in what way is accidentally opening your car door at the wrong time even remotely "negligent homicide?"

On the basis that stopping in the no stopping zone is a crime there for criminal negligence leading to death assuming "negligent homicide" is the same as "criminal negligence causing death"

[Independent voter]

There's this whole movement about bicyclists and opening your car door in the US, they even have proposed a technique were you use your right hand to open the door so that you have to turn your body and you're inclined to look behind you before opening it. Apparently lots of bicyclist have been killed or injured due to car doors.

Bicycles don't make much noise and they aren't very big so looking in the review mirror might not be enough.

On the diplomat thing it's supposed to work both ways so your country's diplomats are also protected, and this is an ancient tradition.

[procne]

I think diplomat immunity isn't the problem here. This should be handled on a higher level. Germany should request that the diplomat resigns of his diplomatic immunity. If he doesn't then Germany should request this from Saudi Arabia, that they remove this diplomat's immunity. If Saudi Arabia doesn't do it, then it's a clear sign it doesn't respect Germany's law and is a base for expelling the diplomat by germany and maybe even the whole embassy.

If the Germany doesn't do antyhing here then it simply means it's whoring and selling around letting other countries kill German citizens as long as relations with those countries remain good and Germany benefits from it. Well, actually every country would sacrifice its citizens if they could get away with it. But in this case it's impossible to sweep it under a rug, so Germany will have to make a stance.

[shadowmouse]

This probably shapes our reaction to the idea of diplomatic immunity, and there are certainly instances where it has been abused; however, I think the outrage is a bit overdone in this example. I hate to come off as victim blaming, but I have to wonder if this being a Saudi diplomat makes the story seem juicier -- juicy enough not to wonder if the bicyclist was wearing a helmet and exercising proper caution. There is a reason to wear a helmet, and a reason to be alert if you're forced to pass close to a parked car.

[Deleted]

There is a reason to wear a helmet, and a reason to be alert if you're forced to pass close to a parked car.

while you could make a case for wearing a helmet the problem is that wearing a helmet isn't mandatory, not standing in a no parking zone just because you don't give a fuck on the other side is. that guy broke the law (the no parking law) which lead to the incident, especially important because the diplomat probably didn't really look before opening his door, which lead to the situation we now have.

Basically "He brought risk onto others by breaking the law, which in case something really happens means he is resonsible" imagine you park in a absolute no never ever no go parking zone, you go your merry way and an hour later a firetruck would need to park right where you are (it's a small street, whatever) you would then by law be responsible for any delayed response and everything that follows the delayed response, though not malicious intent was had.

and yes, it's obviously a tricky subject because the very idea of diplomatic immunity is to make it so countries don't just blackmail each other left and right, or make other countries diplomates live worse just because, but handing out free passes to break the law sadly as it stands mostly ends the wrong way. no, i don't imagine the guy from lethal weapon whenever i hear diplomatic immunity, but as a matter of fact a lot of people abuse theire "protection from unjust prosecution" by taking it as a free pass to just shit on any law that they don't like

[shadowmouse]

why the hell else would you do it.

Because sometimes the Emperor really does have no clothes. It's a car door, not one of the swinging traps from Skyrim, and yet neither the article nor OP's gloss of it seem to question the bicyclist's contribution to the accident.

Als er unvermittelt die Tür öffnet, kann der Radfahrer nicht mehr rechtzeitig bremsen und prallt mit voller Wucht gegen die Tür. Der 55-Jährige wird mit schweren Kopfverletzungen in ein Krankenhaus gebracht. Dort stirbt er 13 Stunden später.

My German is slightly rustier than the Titanic, but the article simply seems to say the door opened suddenly and the bicyclist was unable to brake in time, bouncing with his full weight against the door. The 55 year old was taken to a hospital with heavy head injuries . He died there 13 hours later.

The cyclist did nothing wrong and the driver did - the cyclist cannot be blamed for anything.

It looks like the bicyclist was traveling too fast, there is no indication that he was wearing proper safety gear (there is a reason bicycle helmets should be worn) and was cutting too close to a parked car (always a potential danger). What did the driver do that you say was wrong? We don't know, we don't know what visibility and traffic conditions were, but we can guess he should have been more careful. Same for the bicyclist.

especially important because the diplomat probably didn't really look before opening his door

Like much of your post, that is your assumption -- it fits the way you want to see things. The fact is that we just don't know, We don't know if the driver didn't care, or had a reason for being parked there. We don't know what traffic and weather conditions were, or what other factors might have influence either person's ability to see things clearly.

Yes, I actually have been an administrative hearing officer, and reviewing traffic cases was part of my job. Sometimes things are just an example of aggravated stupidity, and sometimes things are weird. You don't know until all the evidence is in.

[zenkai]

This probably shapes our reaction to the idea of diplomatic immunity, and there are certainly instances where it has been abused; however, I think the outrage is a bit overdone in this example. I hate to come off as victim blaming, but I have to wonder if this being a Saudi diplomat makes the story seem juicier -- juicy enough not to wonder if the bicyclist was wearing a helmet and exercising proper caution. There is a reason to wear a helmet, and a reason to be alert if you're forced to pass close to a parked car.

Very good points.

- - - Updated - - -

^ Since you do understand some German please tell me how you missed the part that said "Er steht mit dem Auto im absoluten Halteverbot."

I have no further comments to your nonsense.

Is that German for "I got owned and I refuse to refute your reasonable arguments" ?

[cubby]

http://www.ksta.de/panorama/berlin-d...enzen-27801016

So basically, a Diplomat currently living in Berlin opened the door of his Porsche Cayenne (parked in an absolute no-stopping zone) without looking, hitting a bicycle driver and causing such grave head injuries that he eventually died.

Because the Diplomat is immune however, he isn't going to get charged with anything and the police is dropping the case.

Turns out the Diplomat is from Saudi Arabia, and they are currently refusing to make any statement whatsoever.


I think diplomatic immunity needs to be re-thought and changed. It cannot be that they have a free pass to commit crimes left and right because they are foreign diplomats. Protecting them from political prosecution is understandable, but in 2016 diplomats caused 22.816 road incidents in Germany. Most of them were unpaid tickets for minor speeding or wrong parking, but relatively speaking a lot of them were also DUI related incidents with 26 injuries. In 2015, they committed 80 accidents/crashes of which 50 were hit and run.

In 2004 (yea some years ago, but still) a Bulgarian diplomat killed a policeman while driving under the influence of alcohol and his "punishment" was to be sent back to Bulgaria. Ridiculous.

Discuss.

It's horrible that it happened, but diplomatic immunity exists for several, VERY good reasons. For instance, State Department officials from the U.S. stationed in Saudia Arabia aren't stoned for wearing jeans on Ramadan.

(i'm not mocking the religion, just the differences in laws, where diplomatic immunity was borne)

You linked a German language article in an english language thread - could you give me a call and read it to me in English?

[Puri]

I see no big thing here. Germany will file a protest note, and Saudi Arabia will pull the Diplomat back (and later send him into another country).
There are valid reasons why diplomatic immunity exists in the first place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplom...munity#History). It's rather unlikely SA will remove it's immunity after a mere accident.

The victim's relatives will get monetary compensation, much more than they would have gotten from the insurance.

And it's not like the Saudi would have suffered much from criminal prosecution, he is the main culprit for this accident, but the biker also shares responsibility for his death which would very likely have been prevented by wearing a helmet (which, if this was a normal case, would severly limit the civil damages from the insurance). The car driver would have been sentenced to probation at best (as long as it was his first mistake) and maybe have his driver's licence removed for a limited time.

[Revik]

Taking the whole diplomatic immunity out of the equation. The cyclist was not wearing a helmet which more than likely would have saved his life. With a helmet it is likely he would just gotten some bumps and at worse a concussion. That is all the person opening the door should be liable for. The fact that the cyclist chose not to wear a helmet and suffered massive head injuries as a result is a fault of his own negligence.

A person cannot be held responsible for someone's bad decision. That seems wrong and unjust.

[Deleted]

Like much of your post, that is your assumption -- it fits the way you want to see things. The fact is that we just don't know, We don't know if the driver didn't care, or had a reason for being parked there. We don't know what traffic and weather conditions were, or what other factors might have influence either person's ability to see things clearly.

exactly, it is my assumption, that's why i wrote "because the diplomat probably didn't really look.

it is an assumption based on what we know, we know he parked in a no parking zone, and he hit a biciclest which mostly would happen when you aren't paying too much attention, or as you yourself said "we can guess he should have been more careful". if he was completly unable to see , would it have been impossible to switch sides and leave the vehicle through the passenger side ? if i can see jack shit this may be the safer bet (normally biciclysts above a certain age in germany are required to use the road, like actual street where cars drive and as the article states nothing else i'll assume that what was the case) but yes, this is an assumption and nothing more, just that i didn't imply it to be anything else. In a court of law ( where this would be handled if this guy wasn't a diplomat) this would be relevant, but it would be taken in context with everything else we don't know (like yes, the weather condition and whatever else you may find we lack the knowledge off)

all i really said was that he was parking in a no parking zone, the articles flat out states this as a fact, those he was breaking the law which makes him responsible at least on basis of neglience for things happenning because of him breaking the law. the fact he probably wasn't paying too much attention is an assumption, that's why i wrote probably, and that lots of diplomats abuse theire status is well documented, not only the german article you quoted itself implys as much, but there are statistics and reports to find on the matter, especially for traffic delicts. lot's (not all) diplomats abuse diplomatic immunity to use no parking spots every day of the week, speed like hell and what not

[Deleted]

Taking the whole diplomatic immunity out of the equation. The cyclist was not wearing a helmet which more than likely would have saved his life. With a helmet it is likely he would just gotten some bumps and at worse a concussion. That is all the person opening the door should be liable for. The fact that the cyclist chose not to wear a helmet and suffered massive head injuries as a result is a fault of his own negligence.

A person cannot be held responsible for someone's bad decision. That seems wrong and unjust.

HE WAS STANDING IN A NO FUCKING PARKING ZONE

He is fully responsible. if you dont understand German or know the full Story maybe you should shut the fuck up instead of blaming the Victim

Someone in Berlin should give him a good Goodbye Present before they sent him to another Country to kill someone

[Puri]

Are you dense, the guy is guilty he parked where he wasn't allowed to, stop blaming the victim.

That he parked in a no-parking zone and much more that he carelessly opened his door lead to the accident. That the cyclist didn't wear a helmet lead to his death. All people participating in traffic share a responsibility.

[Nerovar]

https://global.handelsblatt.com/poli...er-year-706470
Also:


Being this careless and causing another person's death has to be punished. Just imagine this man was one of your relatives and you'd be completely powerless to do anything about it. It's ridiculous.

[Puri]

HE WAS STANDING IN A NO FUCKING PARKING ZONE

I don' get why this is so relevant for many. So additionally for carelessly opening the door he would be fined by 20 euros.