Blizzard killed Mythic+ dungeons.

[mstg]

Mythic + has always been about the AP and weekly chest loot

[Deleted]

It does the exact opposite of that. It requires more try hard quantity.

Because now you have to re-run every key that you don't 1-chest. This explicitly rewards the people that try hard and run their keys for 30+ hours each week (getting a ton of dungeons done and re-pushing keys that they fail). This punishes the quality groups that ran 1-2 keys for the week and stopped once they got to a dungeon/M+ level that they couldn't complete (usually 10ish hours each week).

Before the 7.2.5 changes you either "got good" and did the 23/24 key that you were handed or you weren't pushing higher. In 7.2.5 you don't have to "get good." You run your key 20+ times until the 19/20 dungeon is CoS/Nelth/Eye/HoV that are free dungeons to 1-chest. Then get a free 20/21 dungeon.

A lot of, if not all, top key pushers I know and I played with in the last two m+ seasons are very depressed about the change.

To loose a key level due to little failures is very frustrating and demotivating.

Your theoretical scenario wont work in practise:

A) Very high keys with bad affixes requires special group setups. After each failure the dungeon changes everytime you push the key back again. With any dungeon change you must also change your group setup.

B) Very high keys requires dozens of tries to finish. Due to the changes and a pool of 12 different dungeons, there is just not enough time per week to focus on one specific dungeon. The only way to counter this is to have enough quality (flexibilty, experience, low failure rate, skill) and a pre-invented plan to one-shot those hard dungeons. For m+ veterans there is just no excuse by not knowing each corner in any dungeon. Nevertheless keys with equal difficulty like meowchans +26 CoS run in last season wont appear anymore.

[ScrubRouge]

It does the exact opposite of that. It requires more try hard quantity.

Because now you have to re-run every key that you don't 1-chest. This explicitly rewards the people that try hard and run their keys for 30+ hours each week (getting a ton of dungeons done and re-pushing keys that they fail). This punishes the quality groups that ran 1-2 keys for the week and stopped once they got to a dungeon/M+ level that they couldn't complete (usually 10ish hours each week).

Before the 7.2.5 changes you either "got good" and did the 23/24 key that you were handed or you weren't pushing higher. In 7.2.5 you don't have to "get good." You run your key 20+ times until the 19/20 dungeon is CoS/Nelth/Eye/HoV that are free dungeons to 1-chest. Then get a free 20/21 dungeon.

The try hard the other guy was talking about are the people who push that one +26 Key for 10+ hours trying to get it done it time. It does make the absolute top end not be able to slam their face against the wall. It forces the top ranking to be a little more play skill and not just who has the most time on their hand. Obviously that still will be the case anyway but the gap between will be lessened.

The original point of M+ was to be something that a group of friends can go and do and work on instead of raiding. Have some sort of PvE progress that isn't raiding. It was a tool so that they can gear their character so that they could go Pug some heroic raids on the weekend. it was not originally created to be for top end raiders to spam for gear prior to raids and become a part of the gearing process.

I welcome the change. it means we can have fun pushing our skill in another form of PvE that isn't restricted to 8-10+ hours a week of raiding. It made dungeons more interesting and dungeons boss fights be like mini raid bosses. Defensive CD's and positions have to be thought about in higher keys. It made it more interesting.

They wanted to nerf the ability to spam M+ for low key loots because lets face it. it was stupid how fast you can gear up this way.
The only thing this M+ punished was the lower end and top end users of M+.

[Emancptr]

A lot of, if not all, top key pushers I know and I played with in the last two m+ seasons are very depressed about the change.

To loose a key level due to little failures is very frustrating and demotivating.

Your theoretical scenario wont work in practise:

A) Very high keys with bad affixes requires special group setups. After each failure the dungeon changes everytime you push the key back again. With any dungeon change you must also change your group setup.

B) Very high keys requires dozens of tries to finish. Due to the changes and a pool of 12 different dungeons, there is just not enough time per week to focus on one specific dungeon. The only way to counter this is to have enough quality (flexibilty, experience, low failure rate, skill) and a pre-invented plan to one-shot those hard dungeons. For m+ veterans there is just no excuse by not knowing each corner in any dungeon. Nevertheless keys with equal difficulty like meowchans +26 CoS run in last season wont appear anymore.

I promise you that your "very high friends" didn't push as high as me. And this change does not reward quality in the way that you think it does. Especially if we're talking about Wowprogress score (if you're talking raider.io then it rewards quality somewhat).

A) Simply not true. My group ended World 3-8 on the leaderboard and we didn't change our comp for a single dungeon that we ran (outside of having someone not available and just running with whatever else we had). Comp changes on a dungeon by dungeon basis is almost non-existent. Unless you're meme-ing a dungeon like Cath/Upper/Lower for completion (way over timer).

Groups that need to change comp on a dungeon by dungeon basis aren't the "quality" groups that will do well in the new system.

B) Yes, it takes multiple tries to complete a high keystone. Yes, you can no longer focus on a singular dungeon. None of that matters in 7.2.5 because you literally always have the easiest upgrade path for your keystone.

Infinite amount of re-rolls for you keys means if your group sucks and can't do a 19 Cath, reroll the key. Get a 19 CoS/Eye/HoV/Arc that is literally the freeist shit ever to chest. Then you get a 20 (a key you wouldn't have gotten in the old system) and run that for completion. Then downgrade to 17-18 and re-level your key hopefully getting another easy 19/20 to push your key even higher.

What does a system that allows for infinite re-rolls of keystones reward? It rewards people that just "try hard with quantity" (literally your initial phrasing here). Pushing 1 key to 19 you have an ~30% chance of getting a key that is 1-chest-able (see dungeons mentioned above). Pushing 2 keys to 19 you have an ~50% chance of getting a key that is 1 chest-able. Pushing 3 keys to 19 you have an ~66% chance of getting a key that is 1 chest-able. You see where this is going. The more keys you push to 19 the more likely you are to get a free dungeon that you don't have to even work to 1 chest.

Re-rolling keys from 16-17 and pushing them to 19/20 takes 2-3 hours each time. So the group that runs 20-30 hours a week will most likely have 10 or more chances at that good 19 keystone. Whereas the group that runs 10 hours a week (Prior to 7.2.5 10 hours that would be spent on the 1-2 good keystones that group pushed to 24/25) will only have 2-3 chances at that good 19 key.

This system 100% rewards the group that runs "try hard quantity" because they are almost guaranteed to get a good keystone with enough tries. Whereas the group that would work through their hard 24/25 (DHT/VoTW/BRH) doesn't have the time to re-push all their keys when they don't 1-shot the bad key they got.

The try hard the other guy was talking about are the people who push that one +26 Key for 10+ hours trying to get it done it time. It does make the absolute top end not be able to slam their face against the wall. It forces the top ranking to be a little more play skill and not just who has the most time on their hand. Obviously that still will be the case anyway but the gap between will be lessened.

I'm one of those people. My group was literally the top group in the world for m+ (based on all 5 of our player scores). My group was World 3-8 for Mythic+ last season. I know what it was like to push. I promise you that the changes in 7.2.5 do not reward quality. They reward you mongo-ing your keys until you get easy 19/20 dungeons that are free 1-chests (see points above).

Here's what it boils down to.

7.2: Be good at variety of dungeons. Focus on ones you get high keys for and learn them in and out

7.2.5: Be good at HoV/CoS/Arc/Eye. Re-roll your keys until you get them.

[Stanislav]

its not worth running m+ right now but once you can run 15's fast in a guild group its going to be a nice source of gear.

pugging m+ is dead tho, the difficulty and reward are not worth it when you dont get any items at the end and the key isnt yours.

let alone the headache of sitting around and picking leftovers from people that cant find a guild group for said m+.

[Deleted]

Well, people who only spammed m+ had better gear than most of the mythic raiders.

[ScrubRouge]

I'm one of those people. My group was literally the top group in the world for m+ (based on all 5 of our player scores). My group was World 3-8 for Mythic+ last season. I know what it was like to push. I promise you that the changes in 7.2.5 do not reward quality. They reward you mongo-ing your keys until you get easy 19/20 dungeons that are free 1-chests (see points above).

I get what you mean, and I understand what you are saying. The way I see it, it only quickens the process for people to see their walls in keys. Before this, say your group of friends that you run with all got something much harder than the average dungeon, say everyone gets a Cath and or upper / lower kara (we have had this happen multiple times) Then your group of 5 friends can't push it any more this week (unless they drop someone and pug a key....). its done. It removes that element of when your getting to those higher keys, praying that when you complete it it doesn't roll into an "X" key. if it does, you can just lower the key and kinda work your way back up.

I find it that it helps for people like me where we have the 5 people that want to push high keys. we can just get one key up and keep working on that instead of hitting a wall and having to restart on someone else's key.

I get that in the absolute top end players that commit to pushing themselves for those World top 10 scores are now punished with this mechanic and i am sure that it would suck. but stepping away from that, I find the update to be a nice implementation.

[Deleted]

I promise you that your "very high friends" didn't push as high as me. And this change does not reward quality in the way that you think it does. Especially if we're talking about Wowprogress score (if you're talking raider.io then it rewards quality somewhat).

A) Simply not true. My group ended World 3-8 on the leaderboard and we didn't change our comp for a single dungeon that we ran (outside of having someone not available and just running with whatever else we had). Comp changes on a dungeon by dungeon basis is almost non-existent. Unless you're meme-ing a dungeon like Cath/Upper/Lower for completion (way over timer).

Groups that need to change comp on a dungeon by dungeon basis aren't the "quality" groups that will do well in the new system.

B) Yes, it takes multiple tries to complete a high keystone. Yes, you can no longer focus on a singular dungeon. None of that matters in 7.2.5 because you literally always have the easiest upgrade path for your keystone.

Infinite amount of re-rolls for you keys means if your group sucks and can't do a 19 Cath, reroll the key. Get a 19 CoS/Eye/HoV/Arc that is literally the freeist shit ever to chest. Then you get a 20 (a key you wouldn't have gotten in the old system) and run that for completion. Then downgrade to 17-18 and re-level your key hopefully getting another easy 19/20 to push your key even higher.

What does a system that allows for infinite re-rolls of keystones reward? It rewards people that just "try hard with quantity" (literally your initial phrasing here). Pushing 1 key to 19 you have an ~30% chance of getting a key that is 1-chest-able (see dungeons mentioned above). Pushing 2 keys to 19 you have an ~50% chance of getting a key that is 1 chest-able. Pushing 3 keys to 19 you have an ~66% chance of getting a key that is 1 chest-able. You see where this is going. The more keys you push to 19 the more likely you are to get a free dungeon that you don't have to even work to 1 chest.

Re-rolling keys from 16-17 and pushing them to 19/20 takes 2-3 hours each time. So the group that runs 20-30 hours a week will most likely have 10 or more chances at that good 19 keystone. Whereas the group that runs 10 hours a week (Prior to 7.2.5 10 hours that would be spent on the 1-2 good keystones that group pushed to 24/25) will only have 2-3 chances at that good 19 key.

This system 100% rewards the group that runs "try hard quantity" because they are almost guaranteed to get a good keystone with enough tries. Whereas the group that would work through their hard 24/25 (DHT/VoTW/BRH) doesn't have the time to re-push all their keys when they don't 1-shot the bad key they got.



I'm one of those people. My group was literally the top group in the world for m+ (based on all 5 of our player scores). My group was World 3-8 for Mythic+ last season. I know what it was like to push. I promise you that the changes in 7.2.5 do not reward quality. They reward you mongo-ing your keys until you get easy 19/20 dungeons that are free 1-chests (see points above).

Here's what it boils down to.

7.2: Be good at variety of dungeons. Focus on ones you get high keys for and learn them in and out

7.2.5: Be good at HoV/CoS/Arc/Eye. Re-roll your keys until you get them.

Who cares about 19/20 keys. 19/20er keys are insanley easy with the increased player power from 7.2.5. I am talking about hard keys in time. With 21 keys the whole shit begins. 21 keys are easy overall. With the old depletion system it would only need a 2/3/4 attempts, but with the current system this few attempts require days. Even if you have 5 possible dungeons in the pool, at some point you must focus on one dungeon, you cannot progress 5 dungeons in a single week. For some peole things getting even more complicated with the progression phase of ToS. Furthermore I have also some top 10 clears in the last two seasons.

[Emancptr]

Who cares about 19/20 keys. 19/20er keys are insanley easy with the increased player power from 7.2.5. I am talking about hard keys in time. With 21 keys the whole shit begins. 21 keys are easy overall. With the old depletion system it would only need a 2/3/4 attempts, but with the current system this few attempts require days. Even if you have 5 possible dungeons in the pool, at some point you must focus on one dungeon, you cannot progress 5 dungeons in a single week. For some peole things getting even more complicated with the progression phase of ToS. Furthermore I have also some top 10 clears in the last two seasons.

I'm talking about right now, this week! Yeah 19/20 will be easy in 4 weeks with gear, but we're not talking about 4 weeks from now. Right now 3 groups have done 19s in time.

And yes, the try hard mongo's that you think will not be rewarded in this system. Will push more than 5 keys a week. That's the whole point of my argument. The try hard mongo's that push a bunch of keys will do better than the group that only has time to push 1-2 keys. Because that group isn't rewarded by the new system allowing them to reroll their keys.

[Puri]

Well, in two weeks everything will look differently when we get access to better loot (also in m+).

But generally I agree, a nerf to item drops together with an increase in difficulty (and an overall decrease of player performance) should not have gone live. The changes should have taken place together with the increased itemlevel to alleviate the nerf, right now there are only the nerfs.
It was just a bad design decision, probably forced by technical limitations.

[Wries]

"don't worry guys it's just PTR"

Well, people who only spammed m+ had better gear than most of the mythic raiders.

Imagine the amount of m+ dungeons (base ilvl 890) you'd have to spam to get a full set of properly itemized 910+. Most loot from m+ goes into the garbage bin, that's why it was nice that at least it dropped 6 items so maybe something would prove it worth the effort.

[nekobaka]

Had a good laugh seeing these threads here while Offical forums LFR crowd is complaining about being forced to run non-raid content while down voting people telling them dont like it dont do it.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...5647394?page=1

[PL-Cibo]

What's the point of running them now, apart maybe from one +15 for the weekly chest.

I used to chain run M+10 like an autist. It was fun for me and it gave me something to do with stable outcome (farm some item if you really wanted it).

Now everything is fucked over:

- difficulty upped
- loot drop nerfed
- loot ilevel the same
- key / time / depletion changes are for the worst
- less people care about it (less LFG pool)


Why?

meh who cares about low 10+ keys. Running 15+ is now more profitable. Thats alright. Also next week the ilvl gets buffed why are you complaining?

[gushDH]

They want you to push for higher keys, not farm easy +10s. That's why they reduced the AP rewarded for NH raid and before. Because it was so easy and people just rushed them to get some AP. But that rush/farm is what causes burnout, not trying to push for +25 and above. That makes you want to play at your best and in the end makes for a more enjoyable time.

[Grobovshik]

But that rush/farm is what causes burnout, not trying to push for +25 and above. That makes you want to play at your best and in the end makes for a more enjoyable time.

100 times this.

[Mlz]

They want you to push for higher keys, not farm easy +10s. That's why they reduced the AP rewarded for NH raid and before. Because it was so easy and people just rushed them to get some AP. But that rush/farm is what causes burnout, not trying to push for +25 and above. That makes you want to play at your best and in the end makes for a more enjoyable time.

Why would anyone farm anything for AP anymore? The diminishing returns are insane and as long as you have concordance and do your typical weekly stuff, you keep up with everything (I'm prolly in top 1% with my AP and I do 1-2 M+ per week, don't farm old raids etc; just shows how little people care for AP now). Literally everyone I know (including myself) did +10 primarily for the chest loot and +15 will be the new high (and with better gear I doubt it's going to be very difficult) - literally no reason to push higher keys.

[Deleted]

They did the right thing dis-incentivizing the spamming of lowest max-level keys for loot. Unfortunately, it won't help much once we're settled in ToS gear: +15 will be as brainlessly easy as +10 is now. You will be able to run the +15 (new max ilvl m+) in 3-chest time easily soon. And then it becomes quicker again to just keep running these +15s by running them as fast as you can, thus 3-upgrading it, reset instance 3x to get the new +15, rinse repeat.

There will always be a loophole, but in general I quite like both the loot reduction (it definitely WAS out of hand before) and the non-depleting part.

[Grobovshik]

Why would anyone farm anything for AP anymore?

Because some people enjoy being better than everyone. Even if its 1% increase. Are you new to mmorpgs?

[Mlz]

Because some people enjoy being better than everyone. Even if its 1% increase. Are you new to mmorpgs?

Emphasis on 'some' - the amount of people who care about AP and go out of their comfort zone (e.g going to push higher keys than needed for max loot) to acquire it is abysmally low, I suspect.

[Aggrophobic]

What's the point of running them now, apart maybe from one +15 for the weekly chest.

I used to chain run M+10 like an autist. It was fun for me and it gave me something to do with stable outcome (farm some item if you really wanted it).

Now everything is fucked over:

- difficulty upped
- loot drop nerfed
- loot ilevel the same
- key / time / depletion changes are for the worst
- less people care about it (less LFG pool)


Why?

Becuase people liked M+ but not like Blizzard wanted.
You play WoW like Blizzard wants or you don't play at all.
Deal with it.