This is why I sometimes lack sympathy for those who complain about group finder

[Lochton]

Doesn't match my experience. In the early months of Legion, world boss groups took time to assemble and people expected summons. Now, world bosses are so easy that when there's one healer and a few DPS, the tank pulls, everyone knows the boss isn't going to last long enough for it to be worth even trying to join the group if you're not already there.

To be honest, common raiding etiquette would have people head towards the target instead of waiting for a possible summon, that might not happen but they won't move, because it could happen. That is the majority lately, was so in WoD and MoP too.

[nekobaka]

legit during the time of emerald nightmare i joined a group, i was outside they told me to come inside help summon, i did, they told me to place health-stones but before the cast canceled they kicked me, i said wtf, they reinvited me said sorry, i musta dced, and to place health-stones, i joined, pulled the eye of ilg then hearthed out...
fuck them

I have unfortunately seen that a few times. One time was when I was PuGing with friends and the non-friend group leader kicked the warlock who was friends with us and we bailed along with two of the tanks and a holy paladin who also happened to be friends. Was a late night group and that group went bust.

Have with friends also stolen groups from PoS group leaders with absurd requirements while being an asshole. I among with friends liked to help and carry groups especially in raids we loved. Had a friend in particular that loved to troll the high ilvl requirement for old content run advertisers from trash talking to creating their own group with lower requirements that would fill instead along with grabing some friends for a carry. Ah the days of pre-group finder. Unfortunately my friends and I dont have much spare time to do such extra runs.

[Aggrophobic]

I would never kill your dog, I promise. Or anyone's. And I really wasn't crying, more expressing bemusement. And what is MMO-C for if not to discuss random observations about the game? It's not like we're negotiating world peace in here.

Yeah, perhaps.
Not you maybe but others in this thread seems to think that the game turned people into these lazy assholes.
Thats not how it is, this is what some people are. There is very little you can do about.

I am glad you are not going after my dog though. Thanks.

[Noxina]

As a vanilla player, I can confirm to anyone who reads this stuff that it's complete nonsense and a product of retroactive wishful thinking. No, nobody gave a fuck about their or other people's "reputation", and you could do whatever the heck you wanted, just like today. The atrocious playstyle of people today also has nothing to do with the introduction of LFD.

Your standard Mythic group today plays like a bunch of monkeys, simply because the game allows them to, and because they don't really have "time" to play the game. They just want to burn through shit so they can turn to other aspects of their jadedness. It's just a sign of the times. They don't speak a word to each other, they run around like imbeciles and it doesn't look or feel any different from an auto-queued run on normal difficulty. So much for the "reputation" and the wondrous effects that non-automated groups were supposed to have on "community building".

Don't drink the kool aid and don't listen to the dweebs. They're "remembering" a teenage fantasy of their past life that never happened. What the game really needs is tuning and mechanics you can't just decide not to give a fuck about. And all of this should be 100% queueable.

What are you even talking about? Reputation was very important in Vanilla if you wanted to pug. If you ninjaed one item you got blacklisted by almost all the pug leaders on the server in a heartbeat. You're the one that is remembering wrong, if you even played Vanilla (so many claiming they did, just to get "cool internet points").
Or perhaps you did play Vanilla, and all you did pug was some of the easier 5man HC dungeons, then I guess you could do what ever you wanted of course.

- - - Updated - - -

And you can't know how much I feel salty to be 16 in legion and hearing all day long how much better previous versions of the game were better

No worries, they really weren't better, people just got good memories connected to them. I got so many amazing memories from Vanilla, when I was 13 and new to the game, tried a Vanilla private server a couple of years ago and it was cancer. Same with every expansion - a ton of good memories that makes them seem better, but in reality the game have improved (with some setbacks here and there, garrison..), but the Blizzard team is actually learning from their mistakes, it just seems like they don't.

So yeah, no need to be salty because you missed out of stuff, I'm sure you're gaining your own good memories while playing now.

[ComputerNerd]

and to add to this, because of these lazy and entitled queue systems, it has removed most, if not all of what you just said. People don't search for groups anymore in the looking for group channel. People on all servers hardly ever talk when it comes to grouping up BECAUSE of these very systems.

Thats what made part of the magic of Vanilla, TBC, and part of WoTLK. People got to know eachother on their own realms and friendships were made and realm communities were a thing. That no longer exists anymore because of the automated systems.

That was a problem before the automation.
Stop looking for someone else to blame than players making their own decisions.
Those tools did not force players to behave that way.
They CHOOSE to.

Community was never made by forced interaction or proximity.
It was made by the player desire to do more than help themselves.

The dalaran daily heroic dungeon, spam trade - get a group, don't talk through entire dungeon.
No automation there, and exactly the same effect unless you wanted different.

[Banquetto]

What are you even talking about? Reputation was very important in Vanilla if you wanted to pug. If you ninjaed one item you got blacklisted by almost all the pug leaders on the server in a heartbeat. You're the one that is remembering wrong, if you even played Vanilla (so many claiming they did, just to get "cool internet points").

Absolute nonsense. You had to be the most infamous troll, moron, asshole or ninja to have your name remembered by multiple people, let alone "blacklisted by almost all the pug leaders". Also, most of the infamous ninjas WERE pug leaders - the pug leaders that would allow honest rolling on all loot until something dropped that they or one of their friends wanted.

Or perhaps you did play Vanilla, and all you did pug was some of the easier 5man HC dungeons, then I guess you could do what ever you wanted of course.

Vanilla didn't actually have "HC dungeons", but whatever.

[Pull My Finger]

What are you even talking about? Reputation was very important in Vanilla if you wanted to pug. If you ninjaed one item you got blacklisted by almost all the pug leaders on the server in a heartbeat. You're the one that is remembering wrong, if you even played Vanilla (so many claiming they did, just to get "cool internet points").
Or perhaps you did play Vanilla, and all you did pug was some of the easier 5man HC dungeons, then I guess you could do what ever you wanted of course.

Since this thread is about 5 mans, you're the one that should be asked what you're even talking about.
Nobody gives a shit about PUG raiding and what "rules" and "reputation" thing some silly incestuous little circle of players had going on among themselves. Who gives a fuck? Raiding was even more a guild thing back in the day than it is now. You people always act as if there was this big tribunal back in the golden age of social engineering in WoW. Complete nonsense and simply retroactive wishful thinking, and misinformation.

Nobody ever gave a shit about "reputation", besides a few dweebs who did whatever.

[Noxina]

So I can assume both of you two didn't have a name for your self back in Vanilla? Gotcha. I guess I was just in a different world back then, being invited/inviting people based on the knowledge and reputation, pretty much always being succesful with pugs, being it 10 man dungeons, raids or pvp. (The 5 man dungeons was a joke, and yes it wasn't HC back then, my mistake there it's early in the morning here).
And if we got a troll, ninja or what ever in any of our pugs, they would be blacklisted instantly by pretty much everyone contributing in the pug-scenario. Ignore lists was a thing, you know? And I even remember some having word or excell documents with names in them.

But again, seems I was in a different world than you two back then.

[Flarelaine]

so in vanilla i would come fuck load of soulshards, raid would start, we would have people all the way in the butt fuck no where going "oh raid ok summon me" dude we raid the same time every fucking week "i was farming cloth" ok summon it is

Heh.

In the guild I was with in Vanilla, showing up for raid meant just that. Showing up an the entrance, fully repaired with flasks and food. Oh, you missed the time? No prob, there are always enough people on standby.

Admittedly, the raid leader was pretty much a prick was I was behind him on these rules.

[cparle87]

So I'm a tank, and I used to get really annoyed because every time I joined a group as the 5th person, I would fly to the entrance and usually be the first or second one there. It was confusing to me.

Then I leveled a dps alt and I started to understand. As dps, you have to queue into a group early on and filling it can take forever. So you start doing world quests or whatever to pass the time. A lot of groups collapse before they fill. You don't even realize the group is filled until suddenly you get a summon. Eventually you get used to that and you get out of the habit of actually flying to the zones. You forget where they are.

Meanwhile, tanks and healers are always the last to join, then they go to the entrance and wonder why no one else is there.

Obviously your situation was a little different because you had a tank the moment you started it, but understand that the dps who joined were probably just clicking on every group they could while they did world quests, and not paying a ton of attention. That might explain their behavior.

Wow. That's. Wow. I'd never considered that. I play a druid so I can do anything. When I want to run a reg mythic I find a group with 4 people and queue as whatever they need, usually tank, sometimes heal. And it happens exactly as you say. I'm at least in the zone the dungeon is in before I start looking at the group finder, but I'm almost always the first one there to start summons. So my hats off to you, sir, for that fascinating look in the mind and souls of humanity. /bow

[TheWindMask]

Had something extremely similar to this happen when I made a H NH group last night. We had all dps and no heals at this point. Said "If anyone asks for a summon when the group fills I'm going to kick you. You've already had more than enough time to get here as is." Three people left immediately afterwards /shrug
Not long after that we filled the group and everyone but the people who had just joined were all there and we got a warlock at that point.

[Noxina]

Had something extremely similar to this happen when I made a H NH group last night. We had all dps and no heals at this point. Said "If anyone asks for a summon when the group fills I'm going to kick you. You've already had more than enough time to get here as is." Three people left immediately afterwards /shrug
Not long after that we filled the group and everyone but the people who had just joined were all there and we got a warlock at that point.

The problem with that, is that sometimes it takes time to fill up a raid when you're missing healers and/or tanks, so DPS can do other stuff (check AH, do some crafting in Dalaran), sure there isn't very much one can do while waiting in a raid group, but there is something. Hanging outside NH waiting for those last healers isn't exactly fun if it takes time.
Even worse in dungeon groups, as you can use the time waiting to finish WQs, instead of standing there idle doing nothing.

Not saying being lazy and expecting summons is a good thing, I am mostly one of those first persons at the summoning stone my self. Mostly because when I queue up/create groups, I am done with everything else I wanted to do that day.

[Elim Garak]

I wonder, why is there no such issue in heroics... ahh, I get it - in heroics you can teleport in and out of the instance on a whim, no warlock, no summoning stone needed.
Blame Blizzard for not giving the tools to form groups as fast as possible for Mythics and Raids.

[Marrilaife]

as a 912 prot paladin tank myself with challenge mode skin I pull fast and do insane damage as well but i've never been this elitist to start and clear alone up to the first boss. Then basically solo him and complain in my group that they aren't there yet. Remember this is a team group based game in PVE. IF you want to flex your epeen go player singler player games on hard difficulty. This is actually really disappointing and typical of most elitist players after 910+ ilvl. Instead of paying the way forward for new up and coming players to share knowledge with them you are just trying to show how cool you are for not unsubbing and continuously grinding since launch of legion.

You might have gained lots of ilvl but you lost your humility in doing so. The game doesn't revolve around your ability to clear dungeons at breakneck speed solo.

As much as I agree with some of your points, like the game throwing ilvl at the people who neither need it nor really worked for it, who then proceed to get that to their head "lolol I'm so OP" while not even touching any challenging content, I'm not sure why are you so offended by the idea of someone soloing a dungeon and opening a group with a description "soloing a dungeon, feel free to come and tag along for the free loot", he could solo it silently without listing any group, vendor all the loot and no one would really be upset about anything.

And btw volumes have been written on the subject of "helping new players and sharing your knowledge" and the conclusion I came to is if someone asks a question, try to help them, but if they don't, don't try to help them they don't want it and will get annoyed if you try to force feed them. And if you meant teaching by example, there's nothing you can learn from a dungeon that you overgear by 70 ilvls or something.

If I join a group for something that requires tactics I would usually attempt to give the group simple instructions how to deal with the encounter, sometimes they will listen sometimes they won't, but as soon as the content gets to the level of "ignore tactics zerg everything" there's nothing to learn from it anymore. That's why I avoid hc dungeons and lfr because the experience is absolutely unfun. I had to do hc dungeons again on my new alt for the class campaign for the last relic slot and literally I couldn't even learn how to play my spec properly in a dungeon environment because everything was dead in 3 seconds. I spent most of my time running between the packs than actually pressing my abilities, and my contribution to the group was negligible in the ~830 gear or so.

[Sencha]

Pug in a nutshell.

[Jimson]

So I can assume both of you two didn't have a name for your self back in Vanilla? Gotcha. I guess I was just in a different world back then, being invited/inviting people based on the knowledge and reputation, pretty much always being succesful with pugs, being it 10 man dungeons, raids or pvp. (The 5 man dungeons was a joke, and yes it wasn't HC back then, my mistake there it's early in the morning here).
And if we got a troll, ninja or what ever in any of our pugs, they would be blacklisted instantly by pretty much everyone contributing in the pug-scenario. Ignore lists was a thing, you know? And I even remember some having word or excell documents with names in them.

But again, seems I was in a different world than you two back then.

Your world sounds like a pretty fantastic place. Let me tell you what I remember from back then:

The most obnoxious trolls were already in good guilds, so a "blacklist" didn't mean fuck all. It's almost impossible to truly "ninja" an item in WoW unless the group leader just straight up breaks any agreement in place before the run; giving an item to a friend or keeping it for themselves isn't against the terms unless they wrote in chat how loot would work. I clearly remember realm forum threads about this very thing and the OP getting shot down because it was always "this item was better for me and someone took it, they NINJAED it!" I don't think many people in Vanilla could tell you where the term ninja even came from or how it worked, let alone in 2017.

But hey, you keep your spreadsheets going, i'm sure you were a blast on your realm.

[Deleted]

Yeah people are selfish assholes and continue to do their own thing expecting summons, but i don't blame anyone for leaving if a boss is already dead.

[Deleted]

One thing I would love to see is Blizzard disable summoning stones and warlock portals just for a day and just watch the community riot in less than 1hr.

That would be cool. Like a weekly event maybe appearing once every few months?

[Aquinan]

As a vanilla player, I can confirm to anyone who reads this stuff that it's complete nonsense and a product of retroactive wishful thinking. No, nobody gave a fuck about their or other people's "reputation", and you could do whatever the heck you wanted, just like today. The atrocious playstyle of people today also has nothing to do with the introduction of LFD.

You were either on a shit server then, or you yourself are lying about playing vanilla, because that's exactly how it was.

[Deleted]

Interesting read. Player laziness is also something I absolutely hate. Can't tell you how often I joined an m+ group that filled up a bit slowly, just to finally have 5 players, and you can see that NOONE in the group is moving the the dungeon. Everyone is counting on the others doing it and summoning them.

It's unfortunately a bit self-fulfilling: I'm now also not hurrying to dungeons any more. Why would I if the others dont...

Edit: And this stupid vanilla nostalgia of remembering things like you wish they were, not like they actually were should just DIE...