No Vengeance nerf in the hotfixes?? Are they kidding?

[cuafpr]

you know what is better than surviving and controlling the fight? do both plus contributing to damage which is directly beneficial to success.

you are not a good tank if you cannot assess when to trade mitgation for damage and vice versa. it is fine that you cant think for yourself and make decisions but some of us do

you know whats better than surviving and controlling a fight in my opinion.... nothing. its an opinion on game design. but please walk the line of insults if it helps you. I would enjoy my game play just as much if suddenly tanks did zero dps in 5mans/raids in protection specs as I do now. I just said in another post related to this subject that when in a group that the tank over gears the content, i find it better to have a healer switch over to pure DPS spec vs a tank giving up mitigation. There was a time when tank dps was so little it was insignificant to over all group dps, in LK it started to change and by Cata even more so giving players the option of leveling as protection/heals without gimping themselves in solo content, which does make sense. I think it also brought more tanks/heals to the fold allowing them to numbers closer to DPS roles than before. Its just a personal opinion that i have on design that tank dps should not matter and not be balanced around for group content. Blizzard doesn't share that opinion nor does the majority of the player base i'm sure, which is fine. I don't push progression content anymore for various reasons so it is what it is.

[A dot Ham]

That's fine, you can keep being a bottom of the barrel gets-carried-through-heroic tier player. Some people actually like not being terrible at what they do, though.



You seem to forget how nearly every raid some group full clears mythic with all tanks. If you think +18s and +19s and mythic Gul'dan are "current and relevant" with Gul'dan kills under 9 minutes (vs 15+ minute original kills) and people doing 22-23 keys even with these not so great affixes, you're an idiot. If you were right and this was "trivializing relevant content" they'd easily be doing +25 keys and speed clearing NH in record kill times, which is not the case.

Oh look who's getting personal. Shocker when you can't formulate a decent argument... uhhhh u bad?

I did say earlier that this is probably more of an ilvl/power inflation problem. It is an issue though.

[Sithalos]

PSA:

Vengeance can ignore survivability to deal more damage. They will not be doing that kind of damage on progression. Anyone who doesn't understand this is a salty guardian druid.

Enjoy your well deserved nerfs.

[cuafpr]

Imho (always imho), you are missing the fun that comes with thinking outside the box, stretching your limits, and testing what's possible. M+ records have been set by groups with a Tank + 4 DPS. Raids have always tweaked by altering Heal/DPS mix; it sure is nice when the healers can mix in some dps and the DPS can mix in some off-heals/defensives. Creative guilds have learned they can one-tank some raid bosses, allowing for more heals or dps. And every player in the group can look at how best to use ALL their buttons, not just the ones designed for their primary role.

totally see your side, i just don't enjoy anything related to dps and progression, something about it just erks me. I enjoy it well enough on alts and easier content where having to be perfect on your rotation, cool downs, etc doesn't make or a break a run. I fully support dropping to 1 tank or one less healer as content allows just don't gear towards tank dps. I actually run with a retpally that gears soley for dps in his tank spec and is an exceptional player even completing the tank artifact challenge the second time the mage tower was up (first time he only did ret), and he kids me about my prot dps cause he does like 100k more than me easy. It's just not something i like in terms of design. Obviously if i was to ever go back to chasing server first progression you do what you have to, but i wouldn't enjoy it as much.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

PSA:

Vengeance can ignore survivability to deal more damage. They will not be doing that kind of damage on progression. Anyone who doesn't understand this is a salty guardian druid.

Enjoy your well deserved nerfs.

Agreed. Munkky has made the same observation more than once. We won't be free to spam Fracture/Spirit Bomb in progression; we'll have to go back to weaving in Soul Cleaves, Soul Barriers, etc., the same way many pallies will have to switch out of Seraphim and back to HotP. We are living in a bubble atm, and Blizz is collecting data before they decide. If I remember correctly, they have explicitly stated they want data from the first week in ToS on H before tuning for M.

[markos82]

Agreed. Munkky has made the same observation more than once. We won't be free to spam Fracture/Spirit Bomb in progression; we'll have to go back to weaving in Soul Cleaves, Soul Barriers, etc., the same way many pallies will have to switch out of Seraphim and back to HotP. We are living in a bubble atm, and Blizz is collecting data before they decide. If I remember correctly, they have explicitly stated they want data from the first week in ToS on H before tuning for M.

If you do more dps than a regular dps you can go with 2 "proper" tanks and bring VDH just for their 1m+ dps, right?

[Shakou]

The only thing to say here is that you have an awesome DH tank and he deserves a better group

^This /10chars

Also, I'm certain that if I had a similar group that was this horrible with mythic skorp and spawning extra adds constantly for no god damn reason, my paladin, monk and warrior could all perform BETTER numbers than this demon hunter tank.

[Tech614]

If you do more dps than a regular dps you can go with 2 "proper" tanks and bring VDH just for their 1m+ dps, right?

Guy who doesn't understand how VDH works right here. Please don't comment on mechanics if you don't even understand them.

It's a significant DPS loss for a VDH if they're not actively tanking to generate more pain.

[Elbob]

Guy who doesn't understand how VDH works right here. Please don't comment on mechanics if you don't even understand them.

It's a significant DPS loss for a VDH if they're not actively tanking to generate more pain.

almost every tank looses dps when they are not actively tanking.... I think only DK and Monk(depending on talents) dont gain resources/dmg by tanking. Its also important to note here just DS uptime on cd is a very small dps loss if you are actively tanking a hard hitting boss and not all phases (even while actively tanking) require AM as a tank even on mythic progression. Please see Seraphim for Prot Paladins who sacrifice SotR uptime in order to gain a huge portion of their damage and some defensive benefits of secondary stats.

Much like Seraphim, Spirit bomb provides some survivability via all the leech and fire damage done (more leech) so its not like you are getting 0 defensive benefit from doing all this damage. Is it viable on some crazy hard melee'ing boss to spam every ounce of pain on fracture for more SB's?... no but being able to do ~20% more damage then most other tanks outside required AM windows is a balance issue.

All the people saying "well bears were OP all expac", cool... you are correct bears have been OP and needed a nerf but you don't fix imbalance by making another tank imbalanced. Its not about turns in the spotlight, its about trying to make all options competitive.

[markos82]

Guy who doesn't understand how VDH works right here. Please don't comment on mechanics if you don't even understand them.

It's a significant DPS loss for a VDH if they're not actively tanking to generate more pain.

he can take on adds and so on. Do you really wanna tell me that you think its normal for ANY tank to out dps a regular dps? If you can have 3 tanks, 2 for boss and one for adds that will do more dps than proper dps you would take it. Do you think its normal for 5 tanks to do M+ 19?

[Hablion]

You also have to understand that before the patch Prot Paladins were also pulling 700-800k as well I believe

[zezel81]

If you do more dps than a regular dps you can go with 2 "proper" tanks and bring VDH just for their 1m+ dps, right?

U do know some dps 4m on the first boss in Nh?

- - - Updated - - -

he can take on adds and so on. Do you really wanna tell me that you think its normal for ANY tank to out dps a regular dps? If you can have 3 tanks, 2 for boss and one for adds that will do more dps than proper dps you would take it. Do you think its normal for 5 tanks to do M+ 19?

Yes and no. Let say tank out ilvl you and has maxed AP is very good. Yes.
Let say you have same ilvl as tank same skill it should be 50 to 25% of your dps. That shows it is the case. If he pulled 1m or 2m on aoe fight dps do 4 to6m. If tank out dps u may need to check ur sims gear and AP. Pretty much do better

[Marrilaife]

We won't be free to spam Fracture/Spirit Bomb in progression; we'll have to go back to weaving in Soul Cleaves, Soul Barriers, etc., the same way many pallies will have to switch out of Seraphim and back to HotP.

We won't see DHs and Palas in progression, we will see tanks that can upkeep solid survivability while pushing respectable dps without gimping themselves. Which is basically every other tank class except these 2. I heard after having fotm warriors, druids and monks now is the turn for the blood dk.

Demon Hunters? I think all their devs play Havoc instead.

Still, expect to receive the same treatment as blood DKs in beta, they started with good dps only to end up having living shit nerfed out of them (like 40% off blood boil etc.) and it took Blizzard 10 months to bring them back to good shape.

Routing all veng DHs into fracture + spirit bomb path masks other problems like soul cleave or fel devastation being not attractive enough, if they nerf the "op combo" how about they fix the alternative?

[markos82]

U do know some dps 4m on the first boss in Nh?

Lol, 1st boss in NH isnt last boss in NH, or 9th!!! I can do 3m so what does your comment have to do with what i said!?

Yes and no. Let say tank out ilvl you and has maxed AP is very good. Yes.
Let say you have same ilvl as tank same skill it should be 50 to 25% of your dps. That shows it is the case. If he pulled 1m or 2m on aoe fight dps do 4 to6m. If tank out dps u may need to check ur sims gear and AP. Pretty much do better

Have you seen the rankings? We are not talking about average players, we are talking about players that are clearing NH mythic! No tank should out dps any mythic raider that has killed current end boss for this tier, PERIOD!

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

he can take on adds and so on. Do you really wanna tell me that you think its normal for ANY tank to out dps a regular dps? If you can have 3 tanks, 2 for boss and one for adds that will do more dps than proper dps you would take it. Do you think its normal for 5 tanks to do M+ 19?

That's on my prot pally. And no, I'm not posting to show off; I am sure other tanks could post similar results with even better numbers. It happens sometimes.

[Nahela]

If they nerf it into oblivion based on current data, you may as well just kill off the class. Even at current values it's unlikely to fly in Tomb progression. The only way they can nerf it is if they dramatically increase the leech component on Frailty, otherwise it's just dead.

[Mhyroth]

If they nerf it into oblivion based on current data, you may as well just kill off the class. Even at current values it's unlikely to fly in Tomb progression. The only way they can nerf it is if they dramatically increase the leech component on Frailty, otherwise it's just dead.

Could always go DPS and enjoy the broken burst damage

[markos82]

That's on my prot pally. And no, I'm not posting to show off; I am sure other tanks could post similar results with even better numbers. It happens sometimes.

I did more with my OS guardian so what are you trying to say? Link me the logs of VDH in M Nighthold group, all 10 bosses. His dps compared to others. This is an AOE boss fight on HC, that can be done with 1 tank with dps trinkets. Last time i did it i used balance legendary trinket with some other dps melee trinket and did close to 3.5m dps. DO i think thats insane? Ofc i think but thats 1 tanbk tanking Boss + insane amount of adds almost entire fight. Class/spec is broken when tank out dps pure dps class on lets say Gul'dan mythic or any other mythic NH boss!

[Count Zero]

Looks like Blizz decided they were way too strong: all abilities nerfed 5%, Spirit Bomb reduced 33%

[Inuyaki]

4:12 mythic skorp kill?

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

DH tank damage is hilariously overtuned, but your dps are shit busy padding not knowing their rotations etc, no reason mythic skorp shouldn't die in under 2 minutes.

In under 2min? Log pls...
Our dps have all orange rankings and fight was 2:49