Guilty verdict in teen suicide trial

[Zeek Daniels]

It is when she was actively encouraging it beforehand, told him the method in which to do it, and actively encouraged it during the act. Then failed to get help.

Nope. That guy is an adult and can make his own decisions. He choose to do what he did and also choose not to cut off contact with her. He repeatedly contacted her even though she was saying terrible things to him. He refused to get himself help. He choose to listen to her methods of committing suicide. No one forced him to do a damn thing. He got what he deserved for acting like he did. She on the other hand should be ridiculed for her vicious behavior not sent to jail.

[cubby]

Not the same thing. But nice cherry picking and taking other comments out of context.

Please, explain to us how they were taken out of context. We're all ears. Even @Endus, lol.

The issue, imo, will come down to the civilian duty of care standard, as was pointed out in the case the judge cited for his ruling. Extremely interesting.

Case link - in case anyone is interested in reading the entire thing. Interesting for us legal nerds, lol.

[arel00]

Nope. That guy is an adult and can make his own decisions. He choose to do what he did and also choose not to cut off contact with her. He repeatedly contacted her even though she was saying terrible things to him. He refused to get himself help. He choose to listen to her methods of committing suicide. No one forced him to do a damn thing. He got what he deserved for acting like he did. She on the other hand should be ridiculed for her vicious behavior not sent to jail.

You missed the part where she was actually on the phone with him while he was dying and she did nothing to help him. So, did she do something that led to his death? Yes, failing to warn people and standing still instead of trying to save his life. Is letting someone die without providing any form of help or warning others inherently dangerous? Yes. Did she know that doing nothing and letting him die would lead to... wait for it... his death? Yes.
This is not jus about helping him plan, its abouty doing absolutely nothing to help him while she was actually listening to his dying breaths.

[Altrec]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/us/mic...ase/index.html


What do you guys think? I can't believe telling someone to kill the self is now a crime. What's next full blown thought policing?

Initially I thought this was a strange verdict, but having dug a little deeper it seems like an acceptable verdict. This goes beyond her just telling him to do it or even suggesting he do it. She was in contact with him during the act and even convinced him to get back in the car when he got out. She admitted to friends that she could have stopped it or got him help but chose not too and instead pushed him to do it.

[kail]

The more details I read about the case, the more I agree with the verdict. This is beyond simply texting or telling someone to kill themselves.

[cubby]

Bottom line it isn't because you say so right?

No, I'm just arguing my point. I'm sorry if you don't understand the difference. This is all just my (quite irrelevant) legal opinion. I'm not sure how you thought me saying something makes it so.

In one case, one of the girls used physical acts of violence. The other girl did not. In the case with the 9 teens it was all verbal. There goes your reading comprehension score.

Wow, you read them - but still missed the salient points. In BOTH cases physical acts were part of the bullying, hence making them immaterial to the legal standard being addressed here.

Must be nice living in a fictional world.

More personal attacks, I love it. I guess I'm playing the victim card again though, eh?

You are quite literally the ONLY person in this thread not having an actual discussion. Despite the fact that you continue to claim that is the only reason you are here.

At this point it's unclear whether you understand that word "literally" and "discussion". All I'm doing is having a legal discussion about the verdict. What do you think I'm doing with all these words?

Words ARE actions. Established not only by involuntary manslaughter itself. But by other cases setting the precedent as well.

But what hasn't been established, outside this case, is whether words by themselves constitute an "act" to meet the requirements of a murder charge. I'm open to hearing what you have to say, and I thought I was arguing with you rather well (I enjoy arguing in discussions), I'm just not sure why we slipped into making this personal.

Not sure what you have to gain by making this some ground breaking establishment shattering case... but it isn't. A girl was convicted on very established law. End of story.

Um . . . what? I have nothing to gain - I'm just point out that it is a ground breaking case. Which many others have also pointed out. I'm just discussing the legal points.

[Cyi]

I don't see the problem. If someone is willing and able to kill themselves, so be it, thats their choice. Using the excuse that someone encouraged it would be like blaming the guy that flipped you off, screamed profanities and insulted your wife for you driving your car off a bridge out of a mental breakdown. Yeah she is horrible, I get it, but horrible people don't automatically make for criminal intent. She should and will rot in hell for what she did, it was very pathetic, I just don't see how it can be legally proven to be her fault that he actually did it.

At what point do we take individual responsibility for our actions? Was he mentally ill, from I read yes, was she? Perhaps? I mean what kind of sane person would do what she did? Shouldn't we use the same justification for her? Just spitballing of course as I don't really give a crap and for all the non-god fearing folk on this board why do you care? He is just dirt now anyway will have no memory of his life, so who cares if it was ended early? Without god or an afterlife, it doesn't really matter does it.

[Hiricine]

Terrible person--

The charge really makes no sense. She clearly said what she said with the intention of harming himself, so its not involuntary at least. Though I think the suicide part is the disconnect, if for example he was about to shoot someone else and she said "Just go ahead and do it" or something like that, shed probably be charged with a crime greater than the one she was convicted of.

On that note, I really think adults should be allowed to kill themselves, and if they happen to be texting other people in the process it shouldn't implicate them. I'd rather not be around this person, but I also don't think we need to protect society from her by putting her in prison.

[Raunchy]

I have no specifics, only what the article stated. Still, we can't claim she was "fully there/aware" if there's evidence that shows she may not have been.

Its celexa i take it it doesnt make you an emotionless ass

[cubby]

Nope. That guy is an adult and can make his own decisions. He choose to do what he did and also choose not to cut off contact with her. He repeatedly contacted her even though she was saying terrible things to him. He refused to get himself help. He choose to listen to her methods of committing suicide. No one forced him to do a damn thing. He got what he deserved for acting like he did. She on the other hand should be ridiculed for her vicious behavior not sent to jail.

I was with you up until a point there, lol. I think her appeal will be that in the end, he did this to himself. His choice. Her duty of care, imo, will be their argument against her.

[arel00]

On that note, I really think adults should be allowed to kill themselves, and if they happen to be texting other people in the process it shouldn't implicate them.

That depends on whether the texted people actually do something or not. Failing to act when you know someone's dying is a criminal offense in many countries, mine included. If I were to ignore a dying person on the street I'd be sent to jail. Knowing a friend of mine is dying form his texts or a phone call and not warning anyone about it (family, authorities, w/e) falls under the same law. It's not the same all around the world, I believe there is no such law in the US, but it's less uncommon than you'd think.

[A dot Ham]

Please, explain to us how they were taken out of context. We're all ears. Even @Endus, lol

The issue, imo, will come down to the civilian duty of care standard, as was pointed out in the case the judge cited for his ruling. Extremely interesting.

Case link - in case anyone is interested in reading the entire thing. Interesting for us legal nerds, lol.

Because duty of care applies when a person neglects their civic duty.

If you find that enough then Michelle Carter is most certainly guilty by virtue of not reporting her boyfriend's intent to suicide.

But that isn't your issue as you have made abundantly clear.

Again (I know you struggle with hypotheticals) in this hypothetical, and in this case it goes beyond a neglect of duty and becomes something far more sinister when you encourage someone to kill themselves, especially knowing their mental state, capacity, and ability to do so. Sorry OJ the glove fit this time.

[cubby]

I don't see the problem. If someone is willing and able to kill themselves, so be it, thats their choice. Using the excuse that someone encouraged it would be like blaming the guy that flipped you off, screamed profanities and insulted your wife for you driving your car off a bridge out of a mental breakdown. Yeah she is horrible, I get it, but horrible people don't automatically make for criminal intent. She should and will rot in hell for what she did, it was very pathetic, I just don't see how it can be legally proven to be her fault that he actually did it.

At what point do we take individual responsibility for our actions? Was he mentally ill, from I read yes, was she? Perhaps? I mean what kind of sane person would do what she did? Shouldn't we use the same justification for her? Just spitballing of course as I don't really give a crap and for all the non-god fearing folk on this board why do you care? He is just dirt now anyway will have no memory of his life, so who cares if it was ended early? Without god or an afterlife, it doesn't really matter does it.

Your point about individual responsibility I think is very salient. At what point do his actions and personal choice of actions get overruled by her words. Conversely, where were her responsibilities to stop, or at least attempt to stop, his deadly actions. But to himself. Such an interesting case.

[Orange Joe]

The Doctors defense wasn't just his own opinions. There was evidence of her texting the guy after he died. That leads me to question her mental stability and suppport the notion that she may not have been "all there" when she made the comments to the boy.

That's not supporting what she did - I don't. I want to be clear on that.

If I was in her place I would have done the same. Try to show I cared after the fact. To me it points to her doing it deliberately and having a plan of action afterwards.

- - - Updated - - -

As said, the Doctor didn't just supply his own opinions. There's physical evidence of the texts she sent to the boy after she knew he was dead. That's questionable behavior, and what was likely supporting the Doctors defense.

It's called a red herring. Or covering your tracks. Or a move for sympathy if she does get caught.

- - - Updated - - -

So if a man tells his wife he will kill self if she leaves him and she walks out away and doesn't actively try to make sure he doesn't kill himself has she now committed manslaughter? Wouldn't you have to be an accessory to manslaughter since it's a suicide?

Is taking a bench trial a smart move?


I think the other big reason this is a bad ruling is that this kid was researching suicide and had tried to do it in the past

Did she actively tell him to do it until he did, before she left?


If not I'm not seeing the comparison here.

[cubby]

Because duty of care applies when a person neglects their civic duty.

Right! And a citizen doesn't even have a duty to report. Unless their actions set up the dangerous situation to begin with (Commonwealth v. Levesque), in which case they do have a duty to warn. So the issue is whether her words constituted an act that set up a dangerous situation.

If you find that enough then Michelle Carter is most certainly guilty by virtue of not reporting her boyfriend's intent to suicide.

Right, as the judge did. An interesting note are the cases that MA used in ruling in the case this judge used for his precedent.

But that isn't your issue as you have made abundantly clear.

Again (I know you struggle with hypotheticals) in this hypothetical, and in this case it goes beyond a neglect of duty and becomes something far more sinister when you encourage someone to kill themselves, especially knowing their mental state, capacity, and ability to do so. Sorry OJ the glove fit this time.

Can you please just stop attacking me personally and just discuss the legal issues? Would that be ok now?

[Orange Joe]

It's a possibility, yes.

More probable than your suggestion. I mean she did text the boy this before he commited suicide.

Carter: Yes, you do. I believe in you. Did you delete the messages?

She clearly knew she was telling him something she shouldn't be.

[A dot Ham]

Only 3 things matter:
(1) Someone was killed as a result of the defendant's actions.
(2) The act either was inherently dangerous to others or done with reckless disregard for human life.
(3) The defendant knew or should have known his or her conduct was a threat to the lives of others.

Conduct: Behavior that an shows in reactions and inaction.
http://thelawdictionary.org/conduct/

ac·tion
ˈakSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: action

1.
the fact or process of doing something, typically to achieve an aim.
"he vowed to take tougher action against persistent offenders"
synonyms: measures, steps, activity, movement, work, operation
"the need for local community action"

2.
a thing done; an act.
"she frequently questioned his actions"
synonyms: deed, act, move, undertaking, exploit, maneuver, endeavor, effort, exertion; behavior, conduct, activity


con·duct
noun
noun: conduct
ˈkänˌdəkt/

1.
the manner in which a person behaves, especially on a particular occasion or in a particular context.
"the conduct of the police during the riot"
synonyms: behavior, performance, demeanor; More
actions, activities, deeds, doings, exploits;
habits, manners;
formalcomportment
"they complained about her conduct"
2.
the action or manner of managing an activity or organization.
"his conduct of the campaign"
synonyms: management, running, direction, control, supervision, regulation, administration, organization, coordination, orchestration, handling
"the conduct of the elections"


verb
verb: conduct; 3rd person present: conducts; past tense: conducted; past participle: conducted; gerund or present participle: conducting
kənˈdəkt/

1.
organize and carry out.
"in the second trial he conducted his own defense"
synonyms: manage, direct, run, administer, organize, coordinate, orchestrate, handle, control, oversee, supervise, regulate, carry out/on
"the election was conducted lawfully"

2.
behave in a specified way.
"he conducted himself with the utmost propriety"
synonyms: behave, act, acquit oneself, bear oneself; formal comport oneself
"I am proud of the way they conducted themselves"

be·hav·ior
bəˈhāvyər/
noun
noun: behaviour; noun: behavior

the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Can we observe Michelle Carter's behavior? Yes we can.

How? Through her texts.

behavior = conduct = action

[Dr Assbandit]

This thread is a prime example of people who are utterly uninformed on psychological illnesses think that it's just as simple as "don't kill yourself lolz". The same people I wager who tell people with chronic depression to just cheer up and get over it, or who tell people with generalized anxiety disorder to just calm down.

You don't tell a person who broke their leg to walk it off. The same goes for mental illnesses as they have a fracture as well, just not one you can outright observe unless they are manifesting symptoms. You aren't winning a medal for your internet edgy macho bs, so kindly do everyone a favor and keep your personal responsibility comments to yourself when you don't even realize the mental state of someone with depression.

Seriously, educate yourselves, cheers.

[AeneasBK]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/us/mic...ase/index.html


What do you guys think? I can't believe telling someone to kill the self is now a crime. What's next full blown thought policing?

When you voice your thoughts; it is no longer "thought police". Just wanted to point that out.

[Dispraise]

I don't have a huge problem with this verdict.

Good! Maybe people will stop telling people to kill themselves all the time as a joke, just off the cuff, for harassment or for real encouragement like this bitch did. That should never be OK.... never.

I do have a huge problem with this sentiment, however.

That is all.