Revert TV nerf?

[Kluian05]

aka pick your poison, because they're both mediocre.

Who cares if the talent is mediocre? Frost mages are performing well in T20.

[Charge me Doctor]

what we want more? a buff to all mage specs. all 3 are deadlast in NH with retri since 7.2.5 (check warcraftlogs) and retri will get a buff 100% because melee

i dont understand why mage community always has the "my mage spec must be better than other two mage specs, because i dont want to farm other legendaries, ap,items" mentality since legion. legendaries arent that big of a deal anymore for any spec and concordance you can get within 2-3 days now. i dont care which spec is best, thats why i play mage, to be able to play different dps specs.

i am really interested in 2nd balance wave (especially if they touch arms and all 3 warlocks specs, which are OP af atm)

I checked warcraftlogs and i don't see "all 3 deadlast in NH", probably you look at logs somehow wrong? Not like NH is a relevant measurement tool or something, but if you choose to go this way...

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Who cares if the talent is mediocre? Frost mages are performing well in T20.

I would like to play frost in a ray of frost build, but it's horrible right now. It was really fun to burn low M+ key bosses in a single ray with 1mil+ DPS

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i thought people chose mage as class to be more flexible and to have more options regarding encounters.

No, you would pick a druid if you would want that

[SFBayGamer]

I think if you look at now a fairly good data set from 7.2.5 from raiding NH, you can clearly see the nerf to TV was too much. I usually err on the side Blizz knows and has more data than we have but Im not sure they realized how big of hit this was. Frost has gone literally from in the higher tier to the worst overnight. This leaves mages with pretty zero options until they can get TOS tier gear and re-engage but this is a chicken or the egg situation as they need at least one performing DPS spec so they can actually get off the bench and raid.

I think the developers need to think long and hard today about retracting the TV nerf and keeping the double IL nerf as a compromise similar to what they have done for Fury Warriors.

[Charge me Doctor]

I think if you look at now a fairly good data set from 7.2.5 from raiding NH, you can clearly see the nerf to TV was too much. I usually err on the side Blizz knows and has more data than we have but Im not sure they realized how big of hit this was. Frost has gone literally from in the higher tier to the worst overnight. This leaves mages with pretty zero options until they can get TOS tier gear and re-engage but this is a chicken or the egg situation as they need at least one performing DPS spec so they can actually get off the bench and raid.

I think the developers need to think long and hard today about retracting the TV nerf and keeping the double IL nerf as a compromise similar to what they have done for Fury Warriors.

Too much? I asked around frost magi on my server and they went from ~950k DPS on average to.... 950k DPS on average, it was all the other classes who skyrocketed from 800k average to 950k average. Literally none of them felt the "impact" of the nerf.

But to be fair, it may be a nerf for our MMO champion top-notch players who pulled 1,5 mil DPS every fight and now stuck only with 1,2 mil, who am i to judge?

[Kluian05]

I think if you look at now a fairly good data set from 7.2.5 from raiding NH, you can clearly see the nerf to TV was too much. I usually err on the side Blizz knows and has more data than we have but Im not sure they realized how big of hit this was. Frost has gone literally from in the higher tier to the worst overnight. This leaves mages with pretty zero options until they can get TOS tier gear and re-engage but this is a chicken or the egg situation as they need at least one performing DPS spec so they can actually get off the bench and raid.

I think the developers need to think long and hard today about retracting the TV nerf and keeping the double IL nerf as a compromise similar to what they have done for Fury Warriors.

And part of the reason it was nerfed was because of how good T20 bonuses are for frost, and them coupled together would easily produce 100% uptime on IV. Frost is worse off right now in T19, but not once they get T20 gear.

If you're being benched for normal/heroics and not able to get T20 gear.... well find a new guild.

[Charge me Doctor]

And part of the reason it was nerfed was because of how good T20 bonuses are for frost, and them coupled together would easily produce 100% uptime on IV. Frost is worse off right now in T19, but not once they get T20 gear.

If you're being benched for normal/heroics and not able to get T20 gear.... well find a new guild.

I always wonder if these bench-cases ever happen. So fucking what if you do 50k less DPS overall according to whatever-average-uploaded-log-statistic-website-you-use, if you are good player you won't be replaced. Literally the only place i hear about people being benched because of class "nerfs" is here

[antelope591]

Yeah the nerf was bigger than expected...I could usually keep IV at like 75% or more uptime on most fights at this point in the tier so its like a 200k dps nerf at least. Of course the bad mages who didnt care about stuff like double IL dont see much change and are perfectly happy now that all 3 mage specs are almost equally shitty.

[Nitros14]

To be fair having to change your latency tolerance to make your spec functional was stupid.

[texhex]

all the people saying that with T20 frostmage will be 100% good again are just assuming things. You cant be sure 100% even if you tested PTR.(i even doubt some people claiming T20 will fix it never logged on PTR and actually tested stuff)
Yes our new T20 set boni are good, yes our old T19 set boni got nerfed, but exactly same happened to most classes. their T19 got nerfed and guess what, their T20 is good.
Yes frost and the two other mage specs will increase in damage output the moment we get the new T20, but guess what, all other specs will do aswell resulting in no relative power change compared to other classes.
People said the same for Fire after it got nerfed before NH. "the NH setbonus for fire is OP, it will fix the underperforming spec" check again now how good fire is/was in NH.

Yes its moaning on a high level and yes i know that there always has to be a dps class that is last. If i would play a class that has only one dps spec i would expect to be sometimes good and sometimes bad. but as a class that has 3 dps specs and when you are willing to swap the specs i would expect to have at least one that performs mediocre or upper half. If you only play one mage spec then you have the same ups and downs like every other solo dps class. having 3 dps specs and all three performing poorly aka lowest quarter (on mythic raiding) fells meh.

i still hope they will touch any mage spec with the announced next balance fix. its just that they basically need to buff all 3 same time, because they are quite close together. buffing only one (example arcane) would cause huge drama and moaning again for all the "poor" frost mages "mimimi i put all my AP into frost and now you make me change spec and refarm AP and legendaries i hate you blizz" like what happened after NH fire->frost. People should be happy that they have the option to switch to a better performing spec and not moan around that they made another mage spec better than their main.

overall blizzard achieved their goal for mage; the 3 mage specs are alot closer together now, than before and frost got his double icelance bug fixed and also TV is close to GS. from mage spec balancing POV they did a good job. its just the overall position of mage compared to other specs is really bad atm (if i check mythic logs only ret and maybe ele worse than all 3 mage specs together, and we all know ret will get a buff with next balance wave, because melee)

[Deleted]

indeed. 2P T20 + 4P T20 will make our spec great again
This week's numbers are not very friendly, but it is all about no more double IL, TV nerf and T19 nerf. 3 nerfs at a time, it's a big deal.
With T20 you are supposed to get a lot more of frozen orbs, in a way that IV would last forever with TV, so this nerf will not be reversed.
Simulations with T20 are quite good for frost, of course, this week you cannot see it in warcralogs obvisously.

I Suggest you all stop complaining and go MM+15 in fire spec. It is a better way to spend time.

[xcitng]

You have no idea if you think frost mage is in a bad spot number wise right now even before ToS, even fire & arcane is up there in some fights.

Reverting TV is a surely a joke.

[Sylvaeres]

Nerfed? You mean buffed, right? 10 sec added to 20 second is a pure buff imo.

Ladies and gentlemen, let's all take a moment to enjoy what this man just said

[kheath812]

Nerfed? You mean buffed, right? 10 sec added to 20 second is a pure buff imo.

i guess it's a buff for a really bad mage who never double ice lanced...

[Deleted]

I remember people saying "Just wait, it's only ptr" "just wait, it's only been out for a day" when fire was gutted ... see how that worked?

Stop being an apologist and recognize a pattern when you see one.

That's because fire has shifted back into a core aoe spec, and not really a single target or 2 target spec, which is frost is.

[Aktec]

I don't think reverting tv fully would be good, with the t20 bonuses it would have been very possible to have 100% IV uptime if the nerfs hadn't happened. If Blizz think we're a bit undertuned what they could do is to increase the damage buff we get from IV (chilled to the core-20% frost dmg for 20 secs). Maybe put that to 25% or increase the time a bit, I would prefer this type of buff since I think burst dmg is an area that tv frost lacks a bit.

[SFBayGamer]

I don't think reverting tv fully would be good, with the t20 bonuses it would have been very possible to have 100% IV uptime if the nerfs hadn't happened. If Blizz think we're a bit undertuned what they could do is to increase the damage buff we get from IV (chilled to the core-20% frost dmg for 20 secs). Maybe put that to 25% or increase the time a bit, I would prefer this type of buff since I think burst dmg is an area that tv frost lacks a bit.

That would be good. Or do a reduced CD type of thing ala Kindling? +10sec base and ea. FBolt reduces the CD rather than extending the duration? Something like that.

[Nitros14]

That's because fire has shifted back into a core aoe spec, and not really a single target or 2 target spec, which is frost is.

In a world with ap grind and legendary grind every spec has to be able to contribute well single target or it's bad.

Each mage spec has a niche: Fire sustained aoe /3 target cleave, Arcane burst aoe, Frost 2-target cleave.

All of them should do similar single target outside that niche or everyone will just play the highest single target spec.

Thus everyone is frost.

[Miyagie]

Behold the mighty fire and arcane buff is there !!!
3% overall dmg increase.

[Deleted]

In a world with ap grind and legendary grind every spec has to be able to contribute well single target or it's bad.

Each mage spec has a niche: Fire sustained aoe /3 target cleave, Arcane burst aoe, Frost 2-target cleave.

All of them should do similar single target outside that niche or everyone will just play the highest single target spec.

Thus everyone is frost.

well, unless ofc the devs considers ST dps as a niche which they have for the majority of the xpacs out there but there is an obvious problem with doing what you wrote too tho, bcoz then frost's niche would be significantly weaker compared to our other specs

[Nitros14]

well, unless ofc the devs considers ST dps as a niche which they have for the majority of the xpacs out there but there is an obvious problem with doing what you wrote too tho, bcoz then frost's niche would be significantly weaker compared to our other specs

Two target cleave seems like a big part of Demonic Inquisition, Harjatan, Sisters of the Moon, Mistress Sassz'nine, Desolate Host, Fallen Avatar and Kil'jaeden.

It's not all of those fights, but at least part of all of them.