Revert TV nerf?

[Deleted]

Two target cleave seems like a big part of Demonic Inquisition, Harjatan, Sisters of the Moon, Mistress Sassz'nine, Desolate Host, Fallen Avatar and Kil'jaeden.

It's not all of those fights, but at least part of all of them.

it wasnt so much which bosses in ToS 2 target cleave could be useful for but rather how much dmg/dps its worth compared to fire's and arcane's niche, by comparison, in terms of dmg output for their respective niches, frost's is significantly weaker, i needed to be clearer about that and it wouldnt be an issue if arcane's burst or fire's aoe would be brought to the lvl of frost's 2 target cleave but until that happens, frost needs to be the better ST spec.

[Deix-EU]

Oh my god it's one day since the patch and classes are tuned around ToS set bonuses and trinkets.

it always has been

[Nitros14]

it wasnt so much which bosses in ToS 2 target cleave could be useful for but rather how much dmg/dps its worth compared to fire's and arcane's niche, by comparison, in terms of dmg output for their respective niches, frost's is significantly weaker, i needed to be clearer about that and it wouldnt be an issue if arcane's burst or fire's aoe would be brought to the lvl of frost's 2 target cleave but until that happens, frost needs to be the better ST spec.

I don't think that's true, consider these sims https://www.altered-time.com/forum/v...php?f=2&t=4457

Anyway for this tier frost should definitely not do more single target than the other specs because its main strength is going to come into play constantly.

[Deleted]

I don't think that's true, consider these sims https://www.altered-time.com/forum/v...php?f=2&t=4457

Anyway for this tier frost should definitely not do more single target than the other specs because its main strength is going to come into play constantly.

well frost still has to directly spec into something like splitting ice to be worth a spot for cleaving where as fire does perfectly fine for their niche without something like living bomb, granted living bomb is a HUGE source of dmg for aoe but unlike frost, fire's aoe is atleast passable without living bomb, frost's ability to cleave is close to non-existing without splitting ice.

[mrgreenthump]

well frost still has to directly spec into something like splitting ice to be worth a spot for cleaving where as fire does perfectly fine for their niche without something like living bomb, granted living bomb is a HUGE source of dmg for aoe but unlike frost, fire's aoe is atleast passable without living bomb, frost's ability to cleave is close to non-existing without splitting ice.

I guess that would be relevant comparison if Splitting Ice weren't the top talent for ST as well. Frost will be specced to Splitting Ice most of the time, hence Frost will have cleave.

[Deleted]

I guess that would be relevant comparison if Splitting Ice weren't the top talent for ST as well. Frost will be specced to Splitting Ice most of the time, hence Frost will have cleave.

splitting ice isnt the best talent for ST tho, atleast not for me, frozen touch has consistantly simmed higher for me, and is so important if you wanted to reach high uptimes on IV on a consistant basis, something that rarely happened with splitting ice but you're prolly correct due to the changes to TV, splitting ice might become the better option but atleast atm, it isnt for me.

[Xires]

Dead is a bit much, there are a few fights that all 3 specs are in the bottom half or bottom 3rd which sucks. There are also fights that one of the specs is in the top 3 or 5 specs over all. There is also another tuning coming sometime this week so we will see what happens. What would be nice is not always having 1 or 2 specs so close to the bottom, even more so when the gap from 1st to last is so huge.

The problem is that where Mages do good on some fights...it is only because of padding meters. i.e scorp...etc

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Nerfed? You mean buffed, right? 10 sec added to 20 second is a pure buff imo.

Then you clearly don't realize what they did. Because you also forget that ice lance USED to extend it by 2 sec, and now only extends it by 1 sec.

[Alvito]

The problem is that where Mages do good on some fights...it is only because of padding meters. i.e scorp...etc

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Then you clearly don't realize what they did. Because you also forget that ice lance USED to extend it by 2 sec, and now only extends it by 1 sec.

Skorp or Tichon are both nonsense fights and are treated as such by pretty much everybody, must like mythic Bot. Fights where you endlessly damage things that you don't kill or the damage doesn't advance the fight aren't taken seriously

[MV Kaa]

gotta love the knee jerk panic people are getting from one week in.... in an old raid... with old boss fights.. with old tier... with old legendarys...

[Aktec]

gotta love the knee jerk panic people are getting from one week in.... in an old raid... with old boss fights.. with old tier... with old legendarys...

True but thats exactly what happened with fire at the start of NH, people said it was fine that it was on the low side because everything would be balanced around the new raid/tier sets.

[Deleted]

True but thats exactly what happened with fire at the start of NH, people said it was fine that it was on the low side because everything would be balanced around the new raid/tier sets.

Back then Fire was already low with t19 set on sims. Frost is still vwry strong on ST and cleave fights. Actually mage specs are very well balanced. There will be no more 'only frost is viable for raids' bs circle jerk all around and I am super happy with that

[MV Kaa]

True but thats exactly what happened with fire at the start of NH, people said it was fine that it was on the low side because everything would be balanced around the new raid/tier sets.

You guys are comparing mages to classes that are broken and go nerfed. Just look at boomkins destroying single target because they got buffs to compensate them losing NH tier, so until they drop NHtier, they will be way higher than intended. Its stuff like this that people ignore and only want to look at simdps and 75% logs

[Deleted]

You guys are comparing mages to classes that are broken and go nerfed. Just look at boomkins destroying single target because they got buffs to compensate them losing NH tier, so until they drop NHtier, they will be way higher than intended. Its stuff like this that people ignore and only want to look at simdps and 75% logs

2P +4p T20 is not supposed to give 20% damage increase anyway. It is more likely around 10 % for most of classes.
I don't understand exactly the statement. Did you realize that some T19 got "prevently" nerfed. If NH T19 is such powerfull, it should have been already nerfed.

[texhex]

2P +4p T20 is not supposed to give 20% damage increase anyway. It is more likely around 10 % for most of classes.
I don't understand exactly the statement. Did you realize that some T19 got "prevently" nerfed. If NH T19 is such powerfull, it should have been already nerfed.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sle=true#gid=0

if we assume this list is somewhat true then the new frost T20 set bonuses are decent. but we need to also subtract the old (nerfed) T19 Set bonus first to see the netgain/loss compared to other classes. because a class that has worse T20 than frost mage can still gain more value from them compared to now, if the T19 was utterly bad (higher netgain from switching T19 to T20). As you can see some sets from T20 are ridiculous strong and will widen the gap to mages even more (hello to those who say "wait for T20 the set boni will push as closer to all", it is not that we got the best bonus and will catch up to all classes with it)

also check the gain from arcane and fire compared to others.
T20 set bonus wont save us.

Im not saying mage will be unplayable. a good player can still perform better than a bad player from every other class but if you take equally skilled players then no mage spec will be in upper half, my guess not even upper 2/3 or maybe even upper 3/4. As said just assuming based on current NH performance including T20 simmed gains for all classes, new legendaries and scaling. But its still jsut a wild guess, hopefully i am wrong. Yes someone needs to be last, but as a class that has 3 dps specs i am at least hoping that one is good compared all others (at least we have tripple chance ) i dont care which one i play, i like all 3 because they are all reactive instead of fixxed rotations with debuffs to reapply.

[mrgreenthump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sle=true#gid=0

if we assume this list is somewhat true then the new frost T20 set bonuses are decent.

Frost T20 2-set was nerfed since those sims. It's still better than T19, but not much.

[texhex]

Frost T20 2-set was nerfed since those sims. It's still better than T19, but not much.

afaik these gains are from T20 0set to T20 2set / 2set+4set
so it basically shows ho much you gain from the set effect (+- the different stats you get from the settoken items compared to nonset items)

Just click on feral in the google docs, then you see what i mean

[antelope591]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sle=true#gid=0

if we assume this list is somewhat true then the new frost T20 set bonuses are decent. but we need to also subtract the old (nerfed) T19 Set bonus first to see the netgain/loss compared to other classes. because a class that has worse T20 than frost mage can still gain more value from them compared to now, if the T19 was utterly bad (higher netgain from switching T19 to T20). As you can see some sets from T20 are ridiculous strong and will widen the gap to mages even more (hello to those who say "wait for T20 the set boni will push as closer to all", it is not that we got the best bonus and will catch up to all classes with it)

also check the gain from arcane and fire compared to others.
T20 set bonus wont save us.

Im not saying mage will be unplayable. a good player can still perform better than a bad player from every other class but if you take equally skilled players then no mage spec will be in upper half, my guess not even upper 2/3 or maybe even upper 3/4. As said just assuming based on current NH performance including T20 simmed gains for all classes, new legendaries and scaling. But its still jsut a wild guess, hopefully i am wrong. Yes someone needs to be last, but as a class that has 3 dps specs i am at least hoping that one is good compared all others (at least we have tripple chance ) i dont care which one i play, i like all 3 because they are all reactive instead of fixxed rotations with debuffs to reapply.

Same, I just want 1 spec that will compete for top dps is that too much to ask for a class with 3 dps specs? Every time that's happened this expansion, the spec got decimated after 1 patch, while melee can stay broken for the whole expansion with no issues. Tbh I would've rerolled already if it wasn't for this idiotic legendary system.

[mrgreenthump]

afaik these gains are from T20 0set to T20 2set / 2set+4set
so it basically shows ho much you gain from the set effect (+- the different stats you get from the settoken items compared to nonset items)

Just click on feral in the google docs, then you see what i mean

We had multiple changes to tier sets when 7.2.5 came live, these sims were done BEFORE said changes.

My point was, those sims.. Are not valid anymore.

[Xinder]

That would be good. Or do a reduced CD type of thing ala Kindling? +10sec base and ea. FBolt reduces the CD rather than extending the duration? Something like that.

We already have a trait in our weapon that lets us do that. It's called Frozen Veins and without any Frozen Veins relics it's at a 2sec reduction each time you crit w/ Frostbolt. If you manage to get 3 Frozen Veins relics, which you can get from Tomb, you get rewarded with 3.5sec reduction each time you crit w/ Frostbolt.

[Aktec]

We already have a trait in our weapon that lets us do that. It's called Frozen Veins and without any Frozen Veins relics it's at a 2sec reduction each time you crit w/ Frostbolt. If you manage to get 3 Frozen Veins relics, which you can get from Tomb, you get rewarded with 3.5sec reduction each time you crit w/ Frostbolt.

I have 2 of these relics and IV cd is around 1 30 - 1 40 depending on luck if hero at pull, can tell because orb is still on cd if you use again at 1 min. Before 7.2.5 it would be somewhere around 2 mins. But since we spend more time casting frostbolt now with double ice lance and tier set 2p nerfed its a fairly big difference.

Was theorising that because of this you may not want more than 1 of these relics in ToS so that cds line up better.