Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[daiceman]

It's why I ignore parts of the guide that say feast of souls is good and last resort is not the best talent in the tier except when specing for dps.

There's still good info, you just need to read some of it with a grain of salt.

Feast of Souls is the only talent I don't recommend in that row and I have Last Resort set as a progression talent. I have all 3 in that row set as good for progression talents, with Last Resort and Demonic Infusion being better for DPS. I'm not sure where you read that.

So looking back, I may have misattributed last resort poopooing of some other active posters to you.

Your recommendation of feast of souls I did not though. For the longest time you had it listed as the best talent in the row, it appears you have seen sanity and removed it now though. Some examples of your recommending it are:


Wowhead guide (says written by you, taken from May 11th, 2017):
http://web.archive.org/web/201705112...e-talent-guide


The Icy-Veins guide (says "reviewed" by you, Jan 10th, 2017, no later archive availible):
http://archive.is/g7d53



The google doc (which you appear to no longer upkeep):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...g-TCnYCSo/edit


So you had a very long history of recommending feast of souls, but have recently changed which I whole heatedly endorse.

[lovingbenji]

Check out the wowhead guide for that. I'm going to hold off on the video I was working on and put it out next week.

Thx mate

[Munkky]

So looking back, I may have misattributed last resort poopooing of some other active posters to you.

Your recommendation of feast of souls I did not though. For the longest time you had it listed as the best talent in the row, it appears you have seen sanity and removed it now though. Some examples of your recommending it are:


Wowhead guide (says written by you, taken from May 11th, 2017):
http://web.archive.org/web/201705112...e-talent-guide


The Icy-Veins guide (says "reviewed" by you, Jan 10th, 2017, no later archive availible):
http://archive.is/g7d53



The google doc (which you appear to no longer upkeep):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...g-TCnYCSo/edit


So you had a very long history of recommending feast of souls, but have recently changed which I whole heatedly endorse.

Then that is my bad. I thought I took all of it out of the guide. I have not recommended it to anybody for a very long time. I have always said Fallout/Burning Alive and they were the only ones in my "cookie cutter" builds. The google guide was for Beta only. I took it down everywhere a while ago. I haven't touched it since Legion launched. I am sorry for forgetting that bit. If you notice anything like that, let me know, because I redo much of the guide every patch and it is very easy to miss things. I miss things many times and have had to touch up a few things here and there.

[Delimit]

So looking back, I may have misattributed last resort poopooing of some other active posters to you.

Your recommendation of feast of souls I did not though. For the longest time you had it listed as the best talent in the row, it appears you have seen sanity and removed it now though. Some examples of your recommending it are:


Wowhead guide (says written by you, taken from May 11th, 2017):

The Icy-Veins guide (says "reviewed" by you, Jan 10th, 2017, no later archive availible):

The google doc (which you appear to no longer upkeep):

So you had a very long history of recommending feast of souls, but have recently changed which I whole heatedly endorse.

Pulling up 6 month old archives, and obviously outdated docs from beta? Really? Nevermind the fact that it wasn't wrong at the time.

Glad you agree though, means all the difference.

[Killface1]

On a different subject, concerning things that are relevant to us right now:

Spirit Bomb is getting a 33% nerf and vengence a 5% nerf.

Has anybody simmed this? my instinct tells me this is a fucking horrible blow to us. The only thing that made spirit bomb useable was that it did so much damage that the healing was reasonable. With a huge nerf to damage but not an increase to healing, it wont be useable again for anything remotely resembling progression, so were going back to the old style where we were already pretty shit DPS, and have a 5% nerf on top.

Seems like overkill - nerf an ability into the ground and make it unuseable, then a net dps nerf by 5% because we were doing so much damage with an ability we wont even use anymore.

I guess vengence had its 1 week of the expac of being good, now its time to settle back into last place.

[Deleted]

On a different subject, concerning things that are relevant to us right now:

Spirit Bomb is getting a 33% nerf and vengence a 5% nerf.

Has anybody simmed this? my instinct tells me this is a fucking horrible blow to us. The only thing that made spirit bomb useable was that it did so much damage that the healing was reasonable. With a huge nerf to damage but not an increase to healing, it wont be useable again for anything remotely resembling progression, so were going back to the old style where we were already pretty shit DPS, and have a 5% nerf on top.

Seems like overkill - nerf an ability into the ground and make it unuseable, then a net dps nerf by 5% because we were doing so much damage with an ability we wont even use anymore.

I guess vengence had its 1 week of the expac of being good, now its time to settle back into last place.

It is still fucking great for DPS. I don't think you realize how fucking OP Vengeance was, even in ST situations.

Vengeance did nearly 800k ST-DPS on raid bosses. You will lose about ~15% of that (pure ST) which still leaves you with nearly twice the damage other tanks are doing. And in AoE-/M+- it stays insanely good. Vengeance plows through M+ dungeons with 1-1.2 million DPS at the moment - and you will only lose less than 20% of that.

[dcc626]

dont worry, if it looks like things are still ok they will take it down another notch.

[Killface1]

It is still fucking great for DPS. I don't think you realize how fucking OP Vengeance was, even in ST situations.

Vengeance did nearly 800k ST-DPS on raid bosses. You will lose about ~15% of that (pure ST) which still leaves you with nearly twice the damage other tanks are doing. And in AoE-/M+- it stays insanely good. Vengeance plows through M+ dungeons with 1-1.2 million DPS at the moment - and you will only lose less than 20% of that.

I'm not debating that hitting a target dummy we'll do great DPS - DPS wise the nerf seemed fine.

The problem that I'm wondering about is this: on progression bosses, and mythic + actually, one of the things that makes the spirit bomb build work is that I'm hitting a bunch of targets for 2m+ damage with 20% leech on them regularly, so I'm self healing enough that I'm not made of paper and dont need constant large heal dumps. But I'm not outhealing the damage, and I need significantly more healing than when I play defensively and weave in soulcleaves for heals.

My concern is that we'll be doing enough less DPS that the accompanying HPS nerf will hurt us significantly. A 30% nerf in damage to something that was barely healing us for enough at full damage isn't gonna be real helpful on the mitigation front, where we're already the weakest tank.

I guess at the moment none of us know for sure, and we'll find out on tuesday. I was really hoping to see a buff to the leech that spirit bomb gives though to accompany the dps nerf, and so I'm concerned that if the talent is no longer viable (I get that its totes viable in NH farm where people have had bosses on farm for months and outgear the content by 20 ilvls, I'm thinking more about ToS) we'll be in the shitcan.

[Deleted]

looted vengeance ring legendary that gives leech while demon spikes is active today on my dh, and is it any good or?

[Tech614]

looted vengeance ring legendary that gives leech while demon spikes is active today on my dh, and is it any good or?

It's better now then it was before with the recent buffs to our damage. Maybe better then prydaz in raw "healing" depending on situation.

[Nahela]

looted vengeance ring legendary that gives leech while demon spikes is active today on my dh, and is it any good or?

As an alternative opinion, I'll say that it's good, but potentially less so moving out of T19. With FtD and 4pc T19, uptime was extremely high, making this ring exceptional in a defensive build. It'll be questionable now, but probably still pretty good. It'll depend on how much play Demonic Infusion sees, how much Haste we end up with, if you're also using the legendary pants, etc.

Still though, you're probably looking 'worst case' at 50% uptime of 15% leech, which is pretty damn good.

[Tech614]

As an alternative opinion, I'll say that it's good, but potentially less so moving out of T19. With FtD and 4pc T19, uptime was extremely high, making this ring exceptional in a defensive build. It'll be questionable now, but probably still pretty good. It'll depend on how much play Demonic Infusion sees, how much Haste we end up with, if you're also using the legendary pants, etc.

Still though, you're probably looking 'worst case' at 50% uptime of 15% leech, which is pretty damn good.

T19 4 pc was pretty lackluster outside of mythic+ tbh. It doesn't have much effect on progression raiding.

[Munkky]

On a different subject, concerning things that are relevant to us right now:

Spirit Bomb is getting a 33% nerf and vengence a 5% nerf.

Has anybody simmed this? my instinct tells me this is a fucking horrible blow to us. The only thing that made spirit bomb useable was that it did so much damage that the healing was reasonable. With a huge nerf to damage but not an increase to healing, it wont be useable again for anything remotely resembling progression, so were going back to the old style where we were already pretty shit DPS, and have a 5% nerf on top.

Seems like overkill - nerf an ability into the ground and make it unuseable, then a net dps nerf by 5% because we were doing so much damage with an ability we wont even use anymore.

I guess vengence had its 1 week of the expac of being good, now its time to settle back into last place.

This has already been talked about extensively in many places. In raid we will still be competitive, however it does hurt progression dps some, even though it will overall be much better than it was pre 725.

In m+ we were already one of the stronger tanks and even with the nerf, we will still be one of the strongest. We just won't be as op.

The nerfs were needed and expected, for months. The world isn't ending. We will still use spirit bomb and out doesn't appear that anything has changed gameplay wise.

[Deleted]

As an alternative opinion, I'll say that it's good, but potentially less so moving out of T19. With FtD and 4pc T19, uptime was extremely high, making this ring exceptional in a defensive build. It'll be questionable now, but probably still pretty good. It'll depend on how much play Demonic Infusion sees, how much Haste we end up with, if you're also using the legendary pants, etc.

Still though, you're probably looking 'worst case' at 50% uptime of 15% leech, which is pretty damn good.

thx for answer , my dh is only my alt and has prydaz, the ring and the belt that gives extra dmg above 90% hp enemies. So i dont have much choice in legs, but atleast i know it doesnt suck

[daiceman]

Pulling up 6 month old archives, and obviously outdated docs from beta? Really? Nevermind the fact that it wasn't wrong at the time.

Glad you agree though, means all the difference.

The wowhead was from may 11th, just over a month ago, hardly a 6 month old archvie and yes, the other archive is old as it was the latest one available. Sorry, they don't have newer archives?

And I'll disagree with you that Feast was ever good.

[Delimit]

The wowhead was from may 11th, just over a month ago, hardly a 6 month old archvie and yes, the other archive is old as it was the latest one available. Sorry, they don't have newer archives?

And I'll disagree with you that Feast was ever good.

"Jan 10th, 2017, no later archive availible" - so yes, you were pulling up 6 month old archives and documents from a year ago to try to prove some obscure point (a wrong one no less).

Nobody said it was good, just that it was the best option for single target survivability at the time. Since you're a fan of 1+ year old outdated information - in your own quote "The healing on it isn't the best".

There us no way that Blizz will let the new class be an awful tank.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

What if, instead of 2000 Versatility after using Soul Cleave, we got 400 Versatility for every soul absorbed? Regardless of whether we absorbed it through Soul Cleave, Spirit Bomb, or Soul Barrier? They could track the same way as Painbringer.

I suggested this on thread for Tier 20 Tuning in Battlenet Class Balance forum. Was curious what some of you might think.

- - - Updated - - -

So... not seeing ANY Fiery Demise relics in ToS, which means... an entire tier of fishing M+?

- - - Updated - - -

Better yet, what if every soul consumed reduced the CD for Meta by 1 second? Or maybe that's more of an Argus tier bonus.

- - - Updated - - -

What order should we upgrade legendaries? Maybe go 5 deep, since not everyone has all of them.
I'm thinking...

1. Kirel Nirak (for more Fiery Demise windows)
2. Archimonde's Hatred Reborn
3. Kil'Jaeden's Burning Wish
4. Anger of the Half Giants
5. Fragment of the Betrayer's Prison

[Tech614]

So... not seeing ANY Fiery Demise relics in ToS, which means... an entire tier of fishing M+?

I think every tank spec either only has 1 or 0 of their top dps relics in the raid. Definitely not a coincidence and a clear design choice to make it harder for tanks to push dps, especially when you consider the dps trinkets probably once again have half value for tank specs.

[Yxiomel]

I think every tank spec either only has 1 or 0 of their top dps relics in the raid. Definitely not a coincidence and a clear design choice to make it harder for tanks to push dps, especially when you consider the dps trinkets probably once again have half value for tank specs.

Guardian has a Thrash relic for every slot...

[Veiled Shadow]

Guardian has a Thrash relic for every slot...

Goroth has a Fiery Demise relic as well, so not sure where the notion that ToS didn't have one came from.