Who leads the trolls?

[Magnagarde]

did you just compare Arthas to a troll who get the warchief mantle to do nothing and just die another expansion to give sylvannas spotlight? serious?

tell me another racial leader who get this bullshit treatment, we do not want special treatment for him, we just want good writing, you gonna kill him? fine make it worth a good death, and good meaning, and something to fill his place in the trolls like they did with other leaders and with Varyan, Something planned not pulling from the ass

I compared Arthas because he was done more injustice than Vol'jin. Arthas was the most iconic figure of Warcraft to me and he got defeated by a single paladin's prayer atop ICC. It doesn't get worse than this.

Varian was much more of a warrior type for the Alliance than Vol'jin was for the Horde. Vol'jin was always a "filler" figure and never really felt like a leader, whereas Varian was a true leader to the Alliance. Their importance within their respective factions is impossible to compare. Imagine if Mekatorque was made the leader of the Alliance while Thrall was chief; would you expect him to have the same type of heroic death you'd expect Thrall to recieve?

Your expectations were too big. Mine never were and that is why I have no problem with what they've done with Vol'jin.

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Nope, this is not how things should go. Vol'jin and Sylvanas are not closely related enough to justify the death of one as progression for the other. Like, you know, Daelin for Jaina or Varian for Anduin. It would be tolerable as mere plot point but as "closure" for the character is absolutely atrocious. If that's truly the case than is indeed a case of hilariously shitty writing and a tacit admission of incompetence from Blizzard.

The entire Horde isn't related enough to eachother. The entire Horde is a band of factions with different attitudes, different aspirations, different morals and intentions. That doesn't make the plot any less credible.

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Give me a break. The way Blizzard handled Vol'jin's character was below their usual standards even. To the point that the only time the character truly shined was within a novel written by an actually competent author.

That is how you feel, in addition to certain Horde fans and troll fans. Just because you think he didn't get the death he deserves doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. It is literally the same people repeating how they're not satisfied with it all over the place, making it look like there is more people that don't like it than there actually is.

Vol'jin fits the role of advisor perfectly, but not the role of a remarkable leader that excels at combat. Those that expected the Varian-type heroic death for Vol'jin are delusional; Varian went out with a bang because he always came in with a bang. Vol'jin on the other hand, as a diplomat and spiritual-type of leading figure, had more chance to die of infected toenails than a fight because his character was never focused on direct combat(similar storytelling can be observed by the AU Velen who literally sacrificed himself to purify a Naaru by walking into a beam of void energy, instead of going in with a staff and battering Ner'zhul to death with it).

[Deleted]

Rly dont see why ppl push Rokhan in a leader position.
He is a trooper in the army, did he ever command a group into battle? Had a spiritual position that gave him respect from other Trolls? I did not see any of this sofar.

Most of the time he was either a spy on a frontline or was sending us the heroes to look into matters.

Next to that i think the bloodline matters in Troll culture since Vol'jin took over from Sen'jin in WC3.
Ofc this would mean blizzard spending alot of lore building around Vol'jin kids since they forgot building them up since Vanilla time. (Small update in Cata if i am correct)

[Magnagarde]

Rokhan and Vol'jin are not much different. They're the same type of character, which is closely tied to them actually being the same "class of hero" lorewise. You put them at the helm of an army and you know things won't go down well strategically. However, you send them on a diplomatic/assassination type of mission that requires a delicare approach and you'll succeed. Varian lead the Alliance across all the continents of Azeroth and still died a more gruesome death than Vol'jin, despite all of his combat prowess. Different types of characters go out in different ways.

[Raetary]

Characters have to die. It isn't horrible writing.

im sorry, but making him warchief, then making him do not one thing over the course of an entire expansion just to kill him off at the start of the next one is horrible writing.

[Magnagarde]

im sorry, but making him warchief, then making him do not one thing over the course of an entire expansion just to kill him off at the start of the next one is horrible writing.

Why is it horrible writing? Because whenever you make someone a leader he has to achieve great things, succeed and be remember forever and ever as a beacon of hope, light, preservation and success? They literally diversified the storytelling by doing this and killed off the cliche "Horde warchief much strong, kill kill kill BATTER ARGH kill LOK'TAR OGAR!" type of leading. Not every leader should shine and be a memorable one.

There are memorable leaders and then there are the not so memorable leaders, who either couldn't cut it or didn't have a chance to cut it. Vol'jin is a bit of both because the Horde requires a strong-handed leader.

As I said, you were let down because you expected to see more of Vol'jin, but not seeing more from him and him having had an early death than we imagined doesn't make the storytelling bad.

[Imerpiun]

I came to this thread thinking that there may actually be a leader of the assholes on WoW that we refer to as trolls.

[Flurryfang]

With Vol'jin dead, who is the new troll leader? Was it already mentioned somewhere?

I recently did the prestige quest and all of the racial leaders are present in the Undercity, among them is Rokhan. So it's possible that Rokhan is the new troll leader?

I think the only reason why Rokhan is at the prestige meeting, is because Blizzard have put all their apples into one bucket when it comes to trolls, which was Vol'jin, and that he is dead, they have nobody to take over at all. Even Rokhan is just a scout captain and have no special armor, no special model, no real role in the game when it comes to trolls or just at all and he has no WoW personality either.

Blizzard is atm in their worst period of character creation, and while it is good, that they are finally killing some characters off, they have not created new ones and the world is suffering because of it.

So if i should put my guess on the troll leader, proberly somebody we have not meet yet, because having Rokhan be the leader makes no real sense.

[Syegfryed]

Why is it horrible writing? Because whenever you make someone a leader he has to achieve great things, succeed and be remember forever and ever as a beacon of hope, light, preservation and success?

Yes and no, he is warchief, the most iconic thing in the horde, the leader of a entire faction, he should get focus because the game is around the 2 factions, and one of the factions is under his control. if you rly want compare Arthas with vol'jin lets put this way: what if Arthas just get killed in a mid expansion tier Dungeon to only players in his fucking expansion? sounds bad? thats what happened with vol'jin

They literally diversified the storytelling

diversified to be more shit? i would rather stay the same fucking good cliche thanks

There are memorable leaders and then there are the not so memorable leaders

and there are the shit ones, vol'in could not be memorable but should have good writing, lore with meaning, not only "hey lets kill vol'jin so sylvannas will be warchief thats sounds awesome amright?"

As I said, you were let down because you expected to see more of Vol'jin, but not seeing more from him and him having had an early death than we imagined doesn't make the storytelling bad.

of course we are expecting more from him, because he is fucking warchief, they make a book about him to archive this tittle, then blizzard put him in the freezer and when they could do a thing with him "lol no, forget" just to an excuse for something worse, is bad writing

Rly dont see why ppl push Rokhan in a leader position.

its not "the people" its blizzard, just saying

[Jester Joe]

Was there an achievement for killing Vol'jin (pvp for alliance) when he lived? Is there any achiev for killing any other troll now?

Vol'jin only had one while he was Warchief, replacing the one to kill Garrosh while he was Warchief.

As pointed out, now it's Saurfang on the achievement. There was never an achievement to kill the leader of the Trolls, just like there was never one to kill the leader of the gnomes.

[Trassk]

Blizzard are to busy having us lick illidans hooves to focus on lesser factions. For the fact they made the troll leader warchief of the horde, they left trolls with nothing upon his death.

[omeomorfismo]

did you just compare Arthas to a troll who get the warchief mantle to do nothing and just die another expansion to give sylvannas spotlight? serious?

tell me another racial leader who get this bullshit treatment, we do not want special treatment for him, we just want good writing, you gonna kill him? fine make it worth a good death, and good meaning, and something to fill his place in the trolls like they did with other leaders and with Varyan, Something planned not pulling from the ass

cenarius? he is basically the druid leader and in w3 was "raaawr im the sage god of this sacred lands, now i'll start to slaughter you, unholy foreigners!!1"-> hellscream find the blood pool->cenarius die->end

[Mehrunes]

Characters have to die. It isn't horrible writing. They decided he dies and he died. Just because you wanted to see more of Vol'jin and did not, it doesn't mean it is horrible writing. They do with their characters as they please and it is still writing. You may like, you may dislike it, but it definitely isn't horrible.

It's almost as if decision and execution were distinct things.

Now, you do realize that characters have always been killed with the intention to progress the story and alternate characters with it? That is how things go. Why is everyone expecting Vol'jin to get some special treatment? Just because you like Vol'jin or wanted to see more of him doesn't mean that it is how the creators of the story/universe see it. Whoever complains is simply mad/annoyed/frustrated that the story didn't go the way they wanted or because they had higher expectations than they should've had.

When Vol'jin does nothing as Warchief and then dies because Blizzard wants someone else to be the Warchief and need to vacate the spot, that's not a character-driven story. It's turning Vol'jin into a plot device to drive the story. And wow, Blizzard can develop the story as they see fit? Who'd have thunk. Except "how they see it" is once again the decision part of the process and what's being discussed is the execution of it. Super confusing.

Also, sorry, but characters aren't a deck of cards and you don't alternate characters by "reshuffling" them by killing them off. I mean, you can, if you're a bunch of talentless hacks that can't develop more than a handful characters concurrently and instead create a few spotlight whores, like Blizzard's writers (and even then, killing specifically is still not needed to reshuffle). But then you're defining shitty writing while saying it's not shitty writing. Congrats. Oh, well, if you like the taste of your foot in your mouth, that's up to you.

And since I don't like Vol'jin, don't want to see more of him, didn't want his story to go in any particular way and I have no expectations for Blizzard's writing whatsoever, I anxiously await what asspull excuse you'll find for me.

Varian was much more of a warrior type for the Alliance than Vol'jin was for the Horde. Vol'jin was always a "filler" figure and never really felt like a leader

You're proving that top notch quality of writing really hard right here

That is how you feel, in addition to certain Horde fans and troll fans. Just because you think he didn't get the death he deserves doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. It is literally the same people repeating how they're not satisfied with it all over the place, making it look like there is more people that don't like it than there actually is.

Likewise, the same people repeating that Vol''jin's death was bee's knees doesn't mean the actual number of people finding it satisfying is any big. And since by "people" I mean just you since there's no one else defending it here, the number probably shrinks even further.

Vol'jin fits the role of advisor perfectly, but not the role of a remarkable leader that excels at combat. Those that expected the Varian-type heroic death for Vol'jin are delusional; Varian went out with a bang because he always came in with a bang. Vol'jin on the other hand, as a diplomat and spiritual-type of leading figure, had more chance to die of infected toenails than a fight because his character was never focused on direct combat(similar storytelling can be observed by the AU Velen who literally sacrificed himself to purify a Naaru by walking into a beam of void energy, instead of going in with a staff and battering Ner'zhul to death with it).

It's a good thing then that @Zulkhan didn't say he expected a heroic death for Vol'jin. Hell, he even said this in the very next paragraph: "A satisfying death is not necessarily determined from something epic or awesome but from the kind of closure it brings to the character." Alas, when out of tangible arguments, it's time to board the straw train.

Meanwhile, Vol'jin's death offered no closure of any kind. Because for there to be closure, there needs something to be closed. Given how he got basically no development after becoming the Warchief (which closed the opposition to Garrosh and resulting uprising arc of his personal story), that's not exactly the case for Vol'jin. One needs to be a Blizzard sycophant to see any quality in how this was handled.

Death should also further the plots of other characters who had some relation to the character, be it their friends and family, their killer, etc. Meanwhile the only character that actually reacted to Vol'jin's death was Sylvanas. A person whose first meaningful exchange with Vol'jin was the talk they had moments before he dropped dead, with her reaction being doing literally nothing while she stood in place for a while. And then already during the speech at Vol'jin BBQ she reacted more to her new position than to Vol'jin, with Vol'jin acting merely as a prop. And then she continued to act like she always acts.

And before you bore me with your great and universal wisdom, no, that doesn't mean the death has to be executed in a way that ties up all loose ends for the character. If anything, some loose ends remaining are favorable since they create tension and make the consumer craving for answers. Also, contrary to what you're bullshitting here right now, Vol'jin was an accomplished fighter in his own right.

Why is it horrible writing? Because whenever you make someone a leader he has to achieve great things, succeed and be remember forever and ever as a beacon of hope, light, preservation and success? They literally diversified the storytelling by doing this and killed off the cliche "Horde warchief much strong, kill kill kill BATTER ARGH kill LOK'TAR OGAR!" type of leading. Not every leader should shine and be a memorable one.

"Anything". "Great things, success and something to be remembered by forever".


Are you ready to board, @Arafal?

Also, that cliche was already diversified from by Thrall, if not Orgrim.

[Deleted]

Vol'jin only had one while he was Warchief, replacing the one to kill Garrosh while he was Warchief.

As pointed out, now it's Saurfang on the achievement. There was never an achievement to kill the leader of the Trolls, just like there was never one to kill the leader of the gnomes.

The way blizzard made Saurfang leader of the Orcs is also BS, they did that on a Q&A at blizzcon nothing to support this ingame with a story or lore.
The Orcs now have a 100 year old grandpa Orc acting like he is still 20 years old, just because blizzard cant be bothered to build up a new Orc character aswell so they fall back to a character that is as old as the the warcraft franchise.

[Syegfryed]

cenarius? he is basically the druid leader and in w3 was "raaawr im the sage god of this sacred lands, now i'll start to slaughter you, unholy foreigners!!1"-> hellscream find the blood pool->cenarius die->end

racial leader...

cenarius was nothing in the war3 campaing, lets be honest, only after he get lore, and yet, he didn't stay dead

[Raetary]

Why is it horrible writing? Because whenever you make someone a leader he has to achieve great things, succeed and be remember forever and ever as a beacon of hope, light, preservation and success? They literally diversified the storytelling by doing this and killed off the cliche "Horde warchief much strong, kill kill kill BATTER ARGH kill LOK'TAR OGAR!" type of leading. Not every leader should shine and be a memorable one.

There are memorable leaders and then there are the not so memorable leaders, who either couldn't cut it or didn't have a chance to cut it. Vol'jin is a bit of both because the Horde requires a strong-handed leader.

As I said, you were let down because you expected to see more of Vol'jin, but not seeing more from him and him having had an early death than we imagined doesn't make the storytelling bad.

nobody gives a flying fuck about him being memorable or not.
that isnt the reason why it was shit, its shit because they made his position as warchief completely point- and useless, as they just used him as a plot device to put sylvanas on the throne for extra fan-service.

[Logwyn]

What I don't get is... The other day on my priest I'm running around doing a quest. Guess what I'm doing in the quest. Resurrecting no name npcs that are dead.

If I can run around using resurrection on no named NPCs.... why can't I use it on a named leader that has "died".

[Raetary]

What I don't get is... The other day on my priest I'm running around doing a quest. Guess what I'm doing in the quest. Resurrecting no name npcs that are dead.

If I can run around using resurrection on no named NPCs.... why can't I use it on a named leader that has "died".

good luck resurrecting a pile of ash?

[Logwyn]

good luck resurrecting a pile of ash?

Works on players that are ash, eaten, mutilated, etc. ... why not an npc?

[Flurryfang]

Works on players that are ash, eaten, mutilated, etc. ... why not an npc?

Because it would make the death of lore-characters pointless. In the lore, resssing people is really hard and require alot of things. The easier way, when you have a complete corpse, is the undead way, but if you die and don't want to be rotting when you rise, ressing is super hard and is not looked well on. The players being able to be ressed as something to do with an immortal soul or something like that and the player characters are the only onces who have that and the NPCs have only 1 life.

[omeomorfismo]

racial leader...

cenarius was nothing in the war3 campaing, lets be honest, only after he get lore, and yet, he didn't stay dead

in the manual of w3 he was the demigod that blabla and was the leader/teacher of the druids, a big chunk of the nelf population. so if tyrande can be called racial leader in w3 i suppouse that even cenarius can be called in this way, after all he was their god, a walking and near god.
and btw if the problem is that cenarius got lore after w3 (i think in cataclism, right?), we should wait at least 1-2 expansions, maybe vol'jin will become a loa, a spirit, something, who know