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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Pipboi View Post
    I'd hardly say 30 dead people is irrelevant. You're being extremely insulting and disrespectful to the deceased.
    I wrote a paper on pit bulls last year for class and I read an article about a family with two kids who thought they'd done a great job raising their adorable little pit, and never thought it would attack anybody. Then one of their kids walked around the back of the house and entered through a gate, and the pit spent 20 minutes lock-jawed onto the kid while the parents frantically tried to pull him away. Genetics can't be argued with. Similar to wild wolves, bears, or foxes, you can tame them, but you can hardly domesticate them. Aggression will always be a threat as long as it's part of their genetic makeup.
    Call it disrespectful if you wish, but the OP made a big deal about statistics and science being the only thing he cares about and statistics don't really give a crap about being respectful or emotionally charged. The point is that less than 30 deaths in a population of 320 million a year is not really significant statistically in the grand scheme of things. Overly emotional anecdotes about Pits from both sides are a waste of time and energy.

  2. #282
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    But by getting another dog breed, if you have one you have increased the chance of being bitten by that one instead.
    Which at least in this thread there has been no evidence to show is more or less likely.
    Well it is true any dog can bite and do damage. But if one thinks a Pit bull does not have more potential to do more damage than say a cockier spaniel is denying reality. The breed was bred for fighting and to not stop trying to kill their opponent.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Says every owner... until they do have a problem.
    Only problem here is that dogs don't live as long as we do.
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  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    But by getting another dog breed, if you have one you have increased the chance of being bitten by that one instead.
    Which at least in this thread there has been no evidence to show is more or less likely.
    That... doesn't even make any sense.

    It's like this: One guy has a sports car with a "very poor" IIHS rating, and he regularly does 200 mph on the freeway, driving like a reckless fuckwit. Another guy has one of the safest SUVs on the market, always wears a seat belt, and drives defensively at all times. According to you (and way too many people in this thread), both have an equal chance of being in a fatal car wreck. Hell, they both have exactly the same chance of getting a speeding ticket. Because they're both driving in cars and, therefore, are in exactly the same situations. (But hey, if the first guy went to a driving school, that would make it even more equal because he had the proper training. Not that he's abiding by it because of his nature, even though the training will help him prevent some of the mistakes that an amateur driver would make in the same situation.)

    But, yeah, whatevs, right? It's all the same. They're driving cars, and there's no differences in the way people drive or the cars that they drive. Because, you know, I once met a guy who had the same car as the first guy and he never got into a wreck in it, or ever got a speeding ticket, seeing as how he left it in his garage 24/7. But details, amirite?

  5. #285
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    Humans are also violent primates. Point being?
    "It is not wise to judge others based on your own preconceptions or by their appearances."

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Well it is true any dog can bite and do damage. But if one thinks a Pit bull does not have more potential to do more damage than say a cockier spaniel is denying reality. The breed was bred for fighting and to not stop trying to kill their opponent.
    Personally I want to know why, if Pit Bulls are such amazing dogs after being trained, why police forces around the world aren't using them almost exclusively in their K9 units for roles that don't require sniffing out drugs and the like. (Even though they should be equally as good as that as any other breed, cause breeds just determine what a dog looks like and has no bearing on anything else. Again, amirite?)

  7. #287
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoma View Post
    Humans are also violent primates. Point being?
    And it is best to avoid certain ones as much as possible.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Personally I want to know why, if Pit Bulls are such amazing dogs after being trained, why police forces around the world aren't using them almost exclusively in their K9 units for roles that don't require sniffing out drugs and the like. (Even though they should be equally as good as that as any other breed, cause breeds just determine what a dog looks like and has no bearing on anything else. Again, amirite?)
    I don't see anyone saying it only determines what a dog looks like.

    And how a dog is physically built has nothing to do with whether they're amazing dogs after being trained or not. You're linking together things that don't even relate.

  9. #289
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Personally I want to know why, if Pit Bulls are such amazing dogs after being trained, why police forces around the world aren't using them almost exclusively in their K9 units for roles that don't require sniffing out drugs and the like. (Even though they should be equally as good as that as any other breed, cause breeds just determine what a dog looks like and has no bearing on anything else. Again, amirite?)
    The reasons have been pointed out above in earlier posts. Basically some breeds adapt much better for some roles and when they are assisting humans, control of them is vital.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Skandulous View Post
    Dogs are animals they can snap and when a pit snaps its a killing machine.
    http://blog.dogsbite.org/2017/03/dog...-maryland.html
    Honestly anything the size of a staffi upwards can be potentially fatal. The only thing that make's it worse with Staffis, (pretty sure it applies to Pitbulls and a few other breeds) is they have the ability to lock their jaws which results in them ripping a lot more flesh off, a lot more savagely. Mind you, there is debate if they actually lock their jaw or not, but that's a different argument. Regardless, if it does or doesn't a physical trait doesn't influence it's behaviour.

    And it doesn't change what I said at the end of the day, 9/10 a dog behaviour or aggression is completely linked to it's upbringing, genetics in terms of behaviour doesnt play as big as role as people think.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Personally I want to know why, if Pit Bulls are such amazing dogs after being trained, why police forces around the world aren't using them almost exclusively in their K9 units for roles that don't require sniffing out drugs and the like. (Even though they should be equally as good as that as any other breed, cause breeds just determine what a dog looks like and has no bearing on anything else. Again, amirite?)
    GSD's are used because of their versatility and popularity. Among belgian malinois, labradors, spaniels, and various other breeds. They're not at all exclusive to GSD's. Same as not all pits/staffies are vicious bite-machines, and same as not all poodles are little geniuses waiting to impress you with best-in-show behaviour, they can be just as vicious.

    The problem mostly lies with the owners, pits/staffies are very popular, and that includes some retarded demographic of scumbags who encourage horrible traits in a breed. If they can't use pits/staffies, they will find another breed to use and ruin! BSL does fuck all to help it, and it never will. I doubt anything the officials can strain themselves to think of will.

    Before pits, it was other mastiffs and GSD's, the people that usually cause these dogs to lash out don't give a shit about it, and they never will, they will just find the next in line candidate to compensate.

    Don't just encourage killing/banning the dogs when the root cause is human stupidity. Don't get me wrong, I entirely am aware of some dangerous breeds, some that I'm in favor of being monitored/banned to the general public, but I will never be in favor of a breed being destroyed or banned entirely. Examples being tosa inu. Those motherfuckers are huge dogs, loooong track record of being arena fighting dogs (glorified dog fights in japan), they are lethal if handled badly, as they are sharp dogs, very much the loner-owner, and they are much bigger than pits.

    However. They have their uses, and they can still be an excellent, non-harmful companion to the right owner. I encourage stuff like licenses for certain dog breeds. That would be a the proper solution, but that would take time and effort (and brain cells), so they won't do that, that would be beneficial, of a bit more costly than just fear-mongering people and outright banning specific breeds, taking pets away from their owners that have done nothing wrong.
    Last edited by Halyon; 2017-06-17 at 09:17 PM.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Statically I am sure you are correct. But you know, if I am a victim or a loved one is, I wound not give 2 shits what statistics say. For myself, I would not own one.
    So it isn't about being logically cautious, but irrationally. Yes it would be tragic if anyone died from a dog attack, that doesn't make dogs or pitt bulls unsafe compared to the plethora of other risks we subject ourselves every single day without giving it a second of thought. It's just irrational fear mongering that people like to consume as "news".
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  13. #293
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this just the association fallacy? You take the set of dog attacks and infer that this proportionality is representative of the set of all dogs.
    Last edited by Kraenen; 2017-06-17 at 09:55 PM.

  14. #294
    Don't own a pitbull unless you're a pretty stable individual. That way you're not inserting your own faults into the poor dog's brain. Bad owners make bad dogs. And a "bad" owner isn't necessarily one that beats or mistreats the dog intentionally. There are a lot of well-intentioned fools creating monsters because they treat a pitbull like it's their own baby. It's not your baby. It's an animal. It needs discipline and a routine that involves walks and lots of socialization and playtime. That's how you show love to a pitbull. People smother loving a dog shouldn't have a dog. They should see a shrink.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this just the association fallacy? You take the set of dog attacks and infer that this is proportionality is representative of the set of all dogs.
    Yeah, it is. At this point, I think the thread is more about the pure joy that comes from picking a dumb internet fight where the other side is obviously wrong in ridiculous and provable ways.

  16. #296
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Yeah ofc. She has stated before that she has made attempts at socialization (she alluded to taking her to dog parks when she was a puppy) but I'm not sure if there was an incident at the dog park that made her stop going or if she was inconsistent with her efforts for the dog to end up the way it has, all I know is that Jade (the dog) has been left alone at home for long stretches of time, while she worked, went to graduate school, and completed clinical hours. The dog has a cat companion, but that is not sufficient socialization in my opinion, especially for an introverted owner...

    Honestly considering the dog's behavior I'm kindof suspicious that she "did everything possible" but who knows. I have a cat who refuses to be a 100% indoor cat despite my numerous attempts at VERY GRADUALLY increasing his time indoors/making my apartment a cat palace/funhouse, while my dog is a well-socialized angel I can't wag my finger at other pet owners too much.

    I am a big believer that behavior is both genetics AND environment, but I do think something somewhere went wrong with that dog on the environment end, despite my friend's good intentions.
    I'd honestly be in favor of people having to apply for licenses to own dogs like Pit Bulls, German Shepherds, Rotties, etc. If only because consistent socialization and training are absolutely vital to having a safe dog with those breeds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Personally I want to know why, if Pit Bulls are such amazing dogs after being trained, why police forces around the world aren't using them almost exclusively in their K9 units for roles that don't require sniffing out drugs and the like. (Even though they should be equally as good as that as any other breed, cause breeds just determine what a dog looks like and has no bearing on anything else. Again, amirite?)
    Pit Bulls lack the temperament necessary to fulfill roles as protection dogs is the main issue. They aren't people-aggressive enough. They're too friendly, and too chill, for the most part. Which is why when police departments do use Pit Bulls, it's almost exclusively as drug or bomb sniffing dogs.
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  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    That... doesn't even make any sense.

    It's like this: One guy has a sports car with a "very poor" IIHS rating, and he regularly does 200 mph on the freeway, driving like a reckless fuckwit. Another guy has one of the safest SUVs on the market, always wears a seat belt, and drives defensively at all times. According to you (and way too many people in this thread), both have an equal chance of being in a fatal car wreck. Hell, they both have exactly the same chance of getting a speeding ticket. Because they're both driving in cars and, therefore, are in exactly the same situations. (But hey, if the first guy went to a driving school, that would make it even more equal because he had the proper training. Not that he's abiding by it because of his nature, even though the training will help him prevent some of the mistakes that an amateur driver would make in the same situation.)

    But, yeah, whatevs, right? It's all the same. They're driving cars, and there's no differences in the way people drive or the cars that they drive. Because, you know, I once met a guy who had the same car as the first guy and he never got into a wreck in it, or ever got a speeding ticket, seeing as how he left it in his garage 24/7. But details, amirite?
    I made no such claim, and nor did other people.
    We simply stated that the information was intentionally not complete.
    Numbers owned compared to the numbers of incidents.
    What caused the incidents.
    The background of the dog.

    Anyone sensible would recognise those in other dog breeds as valid considerations.
    Therefore they are as much as in pit-bull breeds.
    As well as pit-bull like breeds encompassing a much larger variety of breeds than other descriptions do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Well it is true any dog can bite and do damage. But if one thinks a Pit bull does not have more potential to do more damage than say a cockier spaniel is denying reality. The breed was bred for fighting and to not stop trying to kill their opponent.
    And so can many other dogs larger than a cocker spaniel, and those dogs were by no means the only ones bred for that sort of behaviour.
    What needs to happen is proper representation of the facts, not pointless claims or cherry-picked figures without proper context.
    Out of all of those owned for every breed, how many have bitten people.
    And what was the situation, the background of the dog, etc.

    Nobody can say without full context that a pit-bull is simply many times more likely to bite someone as another dog breed.
    I could argue that an Audi R8 is many times more likely to break down than a Range Rover.
    Which if I exclude the very important condition of driving through water of sufficient depth it might be.
    But including that context is a very big part of WHY, and under different conditions the situation could be very different if not even reversed.
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  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Unpopular opinion on here, I know, but I don't think we should be able to own pittbulls anymore. We've proven we can't be responsible with such a powerful breed, and it's been at the cost of others. Some countries have bans in place, and I applaud them for doing so. I'm glad they've been banned on US Military Bases.
    This is coming from a person who breeds her dogs specificially so they are in pain and cannot breathe.
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  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I don't see anyone saying it only determines what a dog looks like.
    Tons of people say pit bulls are no different from any other breeds. Ergo, breed must only apply to appearances.

    And how a dog is physically built has nothing to do with whether they're amazing dogs after being trained or not. You're linking together things that don't even relate.
    But people have said they ARE amazing dogs after they've been trained. Do pay attention.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    The reasons have been pointed out above in earlier posts. Basically some breeds adapt much better for some roles and when they are assisting humans, control of them is vital.
    Impossible. Pit bulls are identical to all other breeds in temperament, training, and adaptability. This thread has said so multiple times.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    GSD's are used because of their versatility and popularity. Among belgian malinois, labradors, spaniels, and various other breeds. They're not at all exclusive to GSD's. Same as not all pits/staffies are vicious bite-machines, and same as not all poodles are little geniuses waiting to impress you with best-in-show behaviour, they can be just as vicious.
    Sorry, nope, they're all exactly the same. This thread has made it clear. Especially the guys who "know a guy who had a pit bull that was as sweet as dickens."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    I made no such claim, and nor did other people.
    Bull-fucking-shit. Some have even claimed that it's only the *owner's* temperament that determines the behavior, not the breed. Case in point. Ditto. Oh, and another. etc.
    Last edited by Doctor Funkenstein; 2017-06-18 at 12:18 AM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Tons of people say pit bulls are no different from any other breeds. Ergo, breed must only apply to appearances.


    But people have said they ARE amazing dogs after they've been trained. Do pay attention.
    Yet again, you're ignoring what is actually being said.

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