M+, the only thing thats getting harder to do each patch.

[bowchikabow]

Title says it all.

Not that I have a problem with challenge. My concern is that people who were still working their way up to do, say, +20 or that range, are now having the problem of getting their progression essentially reset.. Multiple times.

You don't see them buffing them raids as the tier progresses.

They talk about the rewards and power curve of players.. As if they didn't think players would become powerful enough to trivialize lower level content.

I am not against keeping the M+ at a certain stable rate of difficulty, which may include slight increases to the difficulty curve, but this latest change of adding the equivalent of 3 key levels for all difficulties will not only harm those who didn't/weren't able to take advantage of the initial power curve or HN gearing, but will also punish those who are putting energy into M+ as personal progression.

[cparle87]

Yeah, but each time they've buffed the mythic plusses they've also done tuning. Originally you needed a +15 for the best loot. Then 7.2 buffed them up, but you only needed +10 for the best loot. Now it's going to be 15 again, but we've gotten a new raid tier of power to gain.

[ONCHEhap]

Well,now mythic+11 to +15 rewards ToS-equivalent gear.It has to become harder

See it like this,so far you had mythic up to +10 giving NH level gear,everything above gave nothing more in terms of gear.Now +11 to +15 became significantly harder,but give rewards in line with ToS.It has to have equivalent difficulty

In a way,it's like the new +11 to +15 is a second tier of mythic+ if you will

[Deleted]

Interesting.
Tbh i think the bar was set too low for mythic+.
It was meant to be progressive content, but blizz made it too available, thus having to constantly tune it.
Not that it has to be overly hard. Just that the reward should fit the difficulty. Ie. getting max gear drops from +10's, when realistically you could steamroll +10's "easily".
Max gear drops should have been at a progression level, ie. maxed out at +20. That means no matter the player, you'd have something to go for. And i think blizz wouldnt have to tune it every patch if it was so, since maybe the overall ilvl would be somewhat lower. What im trying to say is, when they set the bar low like +10's, they're ofc gonna have to adjust the bar constantly since people get better and better gear, more traits, etc.

[Gorsameth]

Title says it all.

Not that I have a problem with challenge. My concern is that people who were still working their way up to do, say, +20 or that range, are now having the problem of getting their progression essentially reset.. Multiple times.

You don't see them buffing them raids as the tier progresses.

They talk about the rewards and power curve of players.. As if they didn't think players would become powerful enough to trivialize lower level content.

I am not against keeping the M+ at a certain stable rate of difficulty, which may include slight increases to the difficulty curve, but this latest change of adding the equivalent of 3 key levels for all difficulties will not only harm those who didn't/weren't able to take advantage of the initial power curve or HN gearing, but will also punish those who are putting energy into M+ as personal progression.

The progress of a raider is reset every tier. You dont get to start on Kil'Jaeden because you killed Gul'dan. Why should raid progress get reset but M+ not if they are both valid progression paths?

The difficulty of M+ increases because the reward increase.

[Deleted]

The progress of a raider is reset every tier. You dont get to start on Kil'Jaeden because you killed Gul'dan. Why should raid progress get reset but M+ not if they are both valid progression paths?

The difficulty of M+ increases because the reward increase.

I hadnt considered it aswell, since i dont do m+ progressive. I just do +10's for gear, since thats when the reward maxes out, and i have no further use for anything more.

But i get it. Those that wanna progress, they have 1 thing in m+. and thats the number after the +. And if thats constantly reset, how do you compare? A M guldan never resets, u kill that; GG. But a +26 should essentially be a +26, not a +26 in patch 7.2.5, which matters less than a +26 in a 7.3, or maybe more than a +26 in 7.3.5.
Which i can see doesnt make sense for progressive m+ players.

[Gorsameth]

Interesting.
Tbh i think the bar was set too low for mythic+.
It was meant to be progressive content, but blizz made it too available, thus having to constantly tune it.
Not that it has to be overly hard. Just that the reward should fit the difficulty. Ie. getting max gear drops from +10's, when realistically you could steamroll +10's "easily".
Max gear drops should have been at a progression level, ie. maxed out at +20. That means no matter the player, you'd have something to go for. And i think blizz wouldnt have to tune it every patch if it was so, since maybe the overall ilvl would be somewhat lower. What im trying to say is, when they set the bar low like +10's, they're ofc gonna have to adjust the bar constantly since people get better and better gear, more traits, etc.

I see the ease of getting Mythic raid level loot from 'easy' M+ levels as one of many systems Blizzard has in place to nerf content over time by increasing player power.
Even if your stuck at an early Mythic raid boss you will get a mythic lvl piece of loot every week which helps you overgear content and keep progressing.

This is something Blizzard has been really focussing on for the last 2 expansions (first with garrison missions during WoD and now with M+ weekly chest). To stop guilds from running into a progression wall, because the numbers tell Blizzard that when guilds get stuck for to long and start to feel hopeless they die and people quit the game.
The 'ease' of M+ is to help keep the raid treadmill going first and foremost.

[Aphrel]

Used to do 21-22s. Now we do 17-18s. going from a 8% to 10% increase per level really punishes the players playing highlvl M+. Wich is really odd since they have said they want players to push higher rather than doing low +3 runs. Its as if blizzard dont know what they want..

a 20 This reset is as hard as a 25 last week... another changed aimed at penalizing ppl who play well.. It feels as if blizzard is against me..

[Noxina]

I don't understand why they reset the difficulty. Why not just continue up the numbers? Instead of making +20 harder than what it was previous patch, let them push up to +30? Thats how I thought the system would be, endless progression like Grifts in Diablo. Not something that changes the difficulty of the number every patch.

Like when suddenly +15 became hard, while those who did it before the changes got the skin "easy" (sure it's a breeze again now, but I guess you get my point?). Keep the difficulty at the same stages through the whole expansion, and see how far people can push. And instead of making +15 ToS gear, make it +20-25 and so forth.

[Gorsameth]

I hadnt considered it aswell, since i dont do m+ progressive. I just do +10's for gear, since thats when the reward maxes out, and i have no further use for anything more.

But i get it. Those that wanna progress, they have 1 thing in m+. and thats the number after the +. And if thats constantly reset, how do you compare? A M guldan never resets, u kill that; GG. But a +26 should essentially be a +26, not a +26 in patch 7.2.5, which matters less than a +26 in a 7.3, or maybe more than a +26 in 7.3.5.
Which i can see doesnt make sense for progressive m+ players.

How do you fix it tho? The difficulty scale had to go up to justify the reward for +15 (or so Blizzard feels, if they are correct isnt important for this discusion).
How do you increase the difficulty without invalidating the progress of these people?

And is it important to do so? They had 6 months to get as high as they could manage, the same way a raider has 6 months to get as far into a raid as possible before it all becomes irrelevant and the next raid is all that matter.

Look at it this way.
A raider can boast he got 9/10 mythic before 7.2.5 (or Tomb opening to be accurate). He might get 10/10 after but that doesnt mean much with new gear.
Same way a M+ player can boast he got to 26 before 7.2.5 reset the scene for another climb to get as high as possible before Argus comes out and changes the M+ difficulty curve again.

[Daffan]

But they drop such good and ez gear

[Noxina]

How do you fix it tho? The difficulty scale had to go up to justify the reward for +15 (or so Blizzard feels, if they are correct isnt important for this discusion).
How do you increase the difficulty without invalidating the progress of these people?

And is it important to do so? They had 6 months to get as high as they could manage, the same way a raider has 6 months to get as far into a raid as possible before it all becomes irrelevant and the next raid is all that matter.

Look at it this way.
A raider can boast he got 9/10 mythic before 7.2.5 (or Tomb opening to be accurate). He might get 10/10 after but that doesnt mean much with new gear.
Same way a M+ player can boast he got to 26 before 7.2.5 reset the scene for another climb to get as high as possible before Argus comes out and changes the M+ difficulty curve again.

Easy to fix, make the max loot at +20. Keep the same difficulties it was in NH, and force people to progress higher number for their "free epic of the week". Then when next tier comes out, make that loot at +30, or +35 depending on how high we climb with ToS gear.

[Gorsameth]

Easy to fix, make the max loot at +20. Keep the same difficulties it was in NH, and force people to progress higher number for their "free epic of the week". Then when next tier comes out, make that loot at +30, or +35 depending on how high we climb with ToS gear.

Because Blizzard has decided to keep the required M+ level for max gear low. Thats why we had a crunch already in an earlier patch.

[Deleted]

How do you fix it tho? The difficulty scale had to go up to justify the reward for +15 (or so Blizzard feels, if they are correct isnt important for this discusion).
How do you increase the difficulty without invalidating the progress of these people?

And is it important to do so? They had 6 months to get as high as they could manage, the same way a raider has 6 months to get as far into a raid as possible before it all becomes irrelevant and the next raid is all that matter.

Look at it this way.
A raider can boast he got 9/10 mythic before 7.2.5 (or Tomb opening to be accurate). He might get 10/10 after but that doesnt mean much with new gear.
Same way a M+ player can boast he got to 26 before 7.2.5 reset the scene for another climb to get as high as possible before Argus comes out and changes the M+ difficulty curve again.

For raids we have achievements to mark progress, curve, cutting edge.
Also raids shouldnt become irrelevant as soon as the next appears. That is imo one of the WORST decisions blizz have made. Because of gear inflation, we basically only have 1 raid at a time to do. which is bullshit, but thats offtopic.

They cant fix it now without a huge overhaul to the system, and making a shitload of ppl mad. cuz thats what ppl do about change, get mad.
Everything is connected.
They should have made m+ baseline a lot harder, and rewards should be mythic raid lvl. since only mythic raiders should be able to progress to that level. Like maybe +10. Then as we get further, they could raise the ilvl rewards to maybe +15, when a new raid comes out, instead of overhauling it to be +10 to continue making gear available to people it shouldnt be available too. Then with 7.2.5 it should have been +20. COntinuously raise the bar for players and progressors.

This would also mean that gear ilvls of the peeps would be lower, heroic difficulty wouldnt be a joke, normal wouldnt be LFR, and LFR.. well. remove it, it only makes the playerbase lazy.
Basically it'd place people where they belong, heroic raiders would raid heroic raids, not steamroll it cuz they overgear it with m+ gear, and get stuck in mythic difficulty where they dont belong.

[Noxina]

Ok so I might be a bit drunk, and I am amazing at paint, but this is how I wish it was (red line), a steady progression through whole Legion. Where 20 would always be harder than 10 etc, no matter what tier patch we're in.

But instead we got green line (I think I got it right? again, I'm a bit drunk, suddenly it got hard to visualize how it works right now.. lol) Where 20 this patch is as hard as 25 last patch. It just makes zero sense in a progression sense of matter, at least to me. Why not keep 20 as hard as it was the whole expansion, and then just increase the number you need to reach to get better loot? It wouldn't be harder than what it is now, just tidier.

[Hashcrypt]

I just love that blizzard not only made M+ more difficult, but also less rewarding.

With zero incentive to do M+ for AP, it's basically a dead in the water system. Sadly it was my favorite part of legion.

[bowchikabow]

All excellent points. As to the post Phailox made regarding previous tiers being trivialized: I remember in Vanilla/TBC where guilds would always start at the first.. max second teir, progress, and then move to newer content. Even when SWP came out in TBC, guilds that were being created started in either Kara or TK/SSC, they didn't just pop up and start raiding SWP. Would be nice to go back to that model, but how to do it?

As for the matter of Mythic +? The issue remains that there is a difference between increasing the difficulty curve as new tiers come out (respect this), vs massive retuning, difficulty resetting, changing ilvl AND gear drop nerfing all send a confusing message about what they actually want from M+.

[zezel81]

I wish the same but they don't want ppl to fill left out(casuals). It is easy todo tho even for casuals. M+ just increase at numbers, world quest drop same as before unless it is more difficult one a little higher, world boss drop as much as LFR because that is all they are, cap titanforge per type of raid, and keep nether shard same but harder to get.

[Gorsameth]

All excellent points. As to the post Phailox made regarding previous tiers being trivialized: I remember in Vanilla/TBC where guilds would always start at the first.. max second teir, progress, and then move to newer content. Even when SWP came out in TBC, guilds that were being created started in either Kara or TK/SSC, they didn't just pop up and start raiding SWP. Would be nice to go back to that model, but how to do it?

As for the matter of Mythic +? The issue remains that there is a difference between increasing the difficulty curve as new tiers come out (respect this), vs massive retuning, difficulty resetting, changing ilvl AND gear drop nerfing all send a confusing message about what they actually want from M+.

The issue with that raid model, and one of the reasons it isnt used anymore is because guilds were cannibalized like crazy. If your BT progressing guild needed a new player they would simply poach one from those doing TK/SSC. A situation that was exasperated by attunements existing. No one wanted to do SSC for the 60th time just to attunement someone so your only recruitment pool was guilds just making the jump from one tier to the next.

Guilds would constantly have their best players poached away, stalling progress as they had to recruit new ones all the while more people were getting poached off until the guild gave up and died.

I was there during vanilla/TBC and it sure wasn't a better system in practice.

Edit:
As for M+. They dont want it to be a loot piñata. Which it was with the amount of gear and AP.

Edit2:Thinking about it a little more, the problem with M+ loot quantity was Titanforging. If it just dropped 885 (or whatever it is) then it would be utterly irrelevant for Mythic raiders, but because it can titanforge up to relevant numbers you get people farming it for gear. So they had to nerf the amount of items rewarded to keep it in check. As well as slow down the progress of M+ progression players who were advancing faster then intended by virtue of the amount of gear they were given.

[Deleted]

Ok so I might be a bit drunk, and I am amazing at paint, but this is how I wish it was (red line), a steady progression through whole Legion. Where 20 would always be harder than 10 etc, no matter what tier patch we're in.

But instead we got green line (I think I got it right? again, I'm a bit drunk, suddenly it got hard to visualize how it works right now.. lol) Where 20 this patch is as hard as 25 last patch. It just makes zero sense in a progression sense of matter, at least to me. Why not keep 20 as hard as it was the whole expansion, and then just increase the number you need to reach to get better loot? It wouldn't be harder than what it is now, just tidier.

mathematically the difficulty of M+ is growing exponentially (M+2 is 10% harder than M+1; M+3 is 10% harder than M+2; M+4 is 10% harder than M+3).

the individual feeling of difficulty is very hard to determine. The first time we are feeling "difficulty" is if the own playstyle does not fulfill the requirements, if we have to change something in our playstyle. This happens quite abruptly- you can clear a votw+15 key quite easy, but the votw+16 key brings you to your limits (same group).

Its comparable with weight lifting. 8 reps of 350lb deadlifts feeling izi, 8 reps of 385lb feeling (and maybe are) impossible.