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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Best Tank Balance since Legion?

    Sco of Method ranks the tanks in a recent video. He ranked them BM > DK & Bear > Pally > DH & Warrior, but his chart showed them all very close, and his closing point was...

    "This is the first time since Legion release that I think the tank balance is really good from Blizzard and that going into Progress raiding, you could play any of the tanks, and they would be viable even at the highest level of raiding."

    What do you think? Is this the best they've done so far? Or maybe we have to wait and see? How will preconceived notions and confirmation bias affect the outcomes? After all, there are a lot of geared bears out there already.


  2. #2
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    His rankings were always on point. Even though I don't play every tank class as my monk is not 110 so far, I would say he is right. They all feel really balanced now.

    It's probably the best balancing in power of classes in the history of WoW. From what I've seen healers are on almost the same level, too, even though there are more differences.
    Last edited by mmoc50a729cd06; 2017-06-18 at 08:59 AM.

  3. #3
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajaBongs View Post
    It's probably the best balancing in power of classes in the history of WoW. From what I've seen healers are on almost the same level, too, even though there are more differences.
    The issue with healers is that even though hps numbers are fairly close, you still "need" Paladin and Shaman before you take any other spec. This has been true for several expansions now and didn't change at all.

  4. #4
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    Right after Sco released the video the hotfixes were posted though. I'm not sure if Monk is the #1 any longer but DH is probably back at the bottom =P

  5. #5
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allana View Post
    Right after Sco released the video the hotfixes were posted though. I'm not sure if Monk is the #1 any longer but DH is probably back at the bottom =P
    Demon Hunter re-tuning was expected. I'm sure Sco knew that. No one expected it to stay broken. Even after adjustments, VDHs will still do way more damage than they did in 7.2.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by allana View Post
    Right after Sco released the video the hotfixes were posted though. I'm not sure if Monk is the #1 any longer but DH is probably back at the bottom =P
    I'm not sure if you can even justify current spirit bomb in most mythic prog. The mitigation loss is clear so unless the fight just isn't threatening tanks or has loads of splashable adds you're likely to just soul cleave a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by allana View Post
    Right after Sco released the video the hotfixes were posted though. I'm not sure if Monk is the #1 any longer but DH is probably back at the bottom =P
    Monk hotfix changed nothing, a minor nerf to their ability to cheese spell based tank killing mechanics.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I'm not sure if you can even justify current spirit bomb in most mythic prog. The mitigation loss is clear so unless the fight just isn't threatening tanks or has loads of splashable adds you're likely to just soul cleave a lot.
    Mitigation loss? The alternatives to the talent provide no mitigation, and using bomb instead of cleave only increases mitigation through spending all your pain on fracture, increasing your painbringer uptime from the soul fragments.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PoopNukem View Post
    Mitigation loss? The alternatives to the talent provide no mitigation, and using bomb instead of cleave only increases mitigation through spending all your pain on fracture, increasing your painbringer uptime from the soul fragments.
    Survivals a better term, spirit bomb is shit for survival unless you're aoeing, and even then only on constant aoe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #10
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Survivals a better term, spirit bomb is shit for survival unless you're aoeing, and even then only on constant aoe.
    I disagree. Spirit Bomb has great synergy with Soul Cleave and (Soul Barrier or Demonic Infusion) that can contribute greatly to our survivability.

    • Which do you prefer - Soul Cleave by itself, or Spirit Bomb/Soul Cleave where you get the added bonuses of Frailty and Charred Warblades?
    • Why just Soul Barrier when you can Spirit Bomb/Soul Barrier then continue to power up the barrier with additional Spirit Bombs?
    • Demonic Infusion can be good by itself, but how much better to use that 60 pain to power up another Spirit Bomb?

    I know players have mostly been focused on the DPS of Spirit Bomb, but that's only because we're in the last week of a raid we've been farming for a while now. We've only just begun to explore all the tanking synergies of our new rotation with Spirit Bomb.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Monk hotfix changed nothing, a minor nerf to their ability to cheese spell based tank killing mechanics.
    It's 10% nerf for magic mitigation, since stagger is the only monk mitigation, hardly nothing. Also it's not about cheesing, it's about surviving. Every other tank has multiple strong cooldowns to "cheese spells". Monk has two cooldowns with huge recharge time, so his answer is stagger. It might be strong sometimes, but so is warriors spell reflect.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper Benhir View Post
    I disagree. Spirit Bomb has great synergy with Soul Cleave and (Soul Barrier or Demonic Infusion) that can contribute greatly to our survivability.

    • Which do you prefer - Soul Cleave by itself, or Spirit Bomb/Soul Cleave where you get the added bonuses of Frailty and Charred Warblades?
    • Why just Soul Barrier when you can Spirit Bomb/Soul Barrier then continue to power up the barrier with additional Spirit Bombs?
    • Demonic Infusion can be good by itself, but how much better to use that 60 pain to power up another Spirit Bomb?

    I know players have mostly been focused on the DPS of Spirit Bomb, but that's only because we're in the last week of a raid we've been farming for a while now. We've only just begun to explore all the tanking synergies of our new rotation with Spirit Bomb.
    Uhh, all of those synergies existed with SB before the change to it.

    Let's cut the BS, SB is taken because it's a large DPS increase.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    To me the issue that they struggle with is designing toolkits that it is even possible to balance. Every single bit of Druid mitigation (except ysera's gift) is based on a percentage of damage taken. Then warriors have ignore which is a fixed amount. So Druids just autoscale with damage and warriors don't. It's impossible to balance those designs.
    The idea was to have 2 kinds of tanks, those whose ressource gen was static (bears, DK, Palli, monk), but whose mitigation was damage taken based and those whose ressource gen was based on damage taken (warrior, DH) but whose mitigation was static in value. Problem was nobody wanted to play the specs that got most of their ressources for getting hit in the face so they toned that part down for more active generation. They anticipated your problem, but their solution just ended up being terrible to play.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper Benhir View Post
    I disagree. Spirit Bomb has great synergy with Soul Cleave and (Soul Barrier or Demonic Infusion) that can contribute greatly to our survivability.

    • Which do you prefer - Soul Cleave by itself, or Spirit Bomb/Soul Cleave where you get the added bonuses of Frailty and Charred Warblades?
    • Why just Soul Barrier when you can Spirit Bomb/Soul Barrier then continue to power up the barrier with additional Spirit Bombs?
    • Demonic Infusion can be good by itself, but how much better to use that 60 pain to power up another Spirit Bomb?

    I know players have mostly been focused on the DPS of Spirit Bomb, but that's only because we're in the last week of a raid we've been farming for a while now. We've only just begun to explore all the tanking synergies of our new rotation with Spirit Bomb.
    As @Tech614 said frailty was always there and noone took it for raid survival even thought it was undeniably the best solo talent prepatch. Fel Devastation also applies to charred warblades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  15. #15
    him saying it means nothing, he played his warrior in NH when it was dogshit.

    while everyone else ran bear brew or just two bears.

    balance will be shown when the 50 top guilds start running clearing mythic.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper Benhir View Post
    Demon Hunter re-tuning was expected. I'm sure Sco knew that. No one expected it to stay broken. Even after adjustments, VDHs will still do way more damage than they did in 7.2.
    the re-tuning hasn't a big effect on progress raiding.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    him saying it means nothing, he played his warrior in NH when it was dogshit.

    while everyone else ran bear brew or just two bears.

    balance will be shown when the 50 top guilds start running clearing mythic.
    You mean sco? He played bear in NH for their progress.

    They ran bear/monk on the majority of bosses, and notably on guldan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    him saying it means nothing, he played his warrior in NH when it was dogshit.

    while everyone else ran bear brew or just two bears.

    balance will be shown when the 50 top guilds start running clearing mythic.
    You high?

    /10char

  19. #19
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    him saying it means nothing, he played his warrior in NH when it was dogshit.

    while everyone else ran bear brew or just two bears.

    balance will be shown when the 50 top guilds start running clearing mythic.
    I agree that balance will be shown when top 50 guilds clear mythic.
    I disagree that Sco's opinion isn't worth listening to. His credentials are as good or better than anyone else discussing these things, and his logical arguments for the conclusions he comes to all make sense. Clearly there are some variables in there that don't get discussed in the videos, like how warrior dps was good enough to warrant using them as part of a tank team on fights where the dps check was a concern. Sco and his team operate at a different level from most of us, and do stuff the rest of us wouldn't think to do. Not saying that about you, in particular; for all I know you're best raider in all of WoW. I don't know your credentials, but we all know Sco's.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper Benhir View Post
    Demon Hunter re-tuning was expected. I'm sure Sco knew that. No one expected it to stay broken. Even after adjustments, VDHs will still do way more damage than they did in 7.2.
    Lack of damage wasn't really the reason why they weren't being taken for progression though, it's their shitty mitigation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Monk hotfix changed nothing, a minor nerf to their ability to cheese spell based tank killing mechanics.
    Actually the nerf to their 2p was pretty devastating.
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
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