Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Deleted]

Our T19 is great... T20 sucks after nerfd while T20 is fucking awesome for most classes... thats why we are going to be at the botton for the next tier

It doesnt suck, it is even better than current T19 in sims...

[Bisque]

It doesnt suck, it is even better than current T19 in sims...

Well that is kind of what I am wondering: If frost T20 sucks why would blizz nerf it? Wouldn't it make sense to buff frost T20 if it does indeed suck. Or is his a case of "sky is falling" syndrome?

[RuneDK]

Problem is, nighthold is the first tiered raid in a while where frost was king. The people that love frost don't want to see it back to the bottom like it's been most of the last few tiers. Before the assholes say it was better spec for progression in numerous tiers....let's be honest...it was better for top 100 progression....not overall progression. I and many dks were forced into unholy because we aren't too 100 players for most of last expansion and before then too.

[Hctaz]

Hmm , frost wasn't buffed in the most recent hot fixes (kudos to survival) so I would have to assume that the sims are not accurate. Either that or blizz is late to the party. _

Blizzard doesn't care about sims. Look at the logs from Nighthold last week. They buffed the low specs and nerfed the really high ones likes Arms, destro, and affliction.

[Khain]

Blizzard doesn't care about sims. Look at the logs from Nighthold last week. They buffed the low specs and nerfed the really high ones likes Arms, destro, and affliction.

well that's tier 19 with a bunch of fights that are outgeared and last way shorter than they supposed to last.

[Hctaz]

well that's tier 19 with a bunch of fights that are outgeared and last way shorter than they supposed to last.

Doesn't matter. Just look at the logs and you'll see that the data from this past week perfectly matches the buffs and nerfs to dps specs. This is all Blizzard cares about. They also care more about the start of the tier than they do at the end of the tier. If every class and spec is pretty even in the gear acquired by the time Kil'jaeden dies on Mythic then they don't really honestly care that much. They might make some adjustments in the future though if they determine that some classes are greatly outclassed by others.

For a quick link: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#region=3

Blizzard is using this data. Just look at the classes buffed and nerfed. Arms warrior, affliction, and destro all nerfed. Buffed specs? Survival, Ret, Arcane, Fire, Elemental. So they nerfed the top 3 and buffed the bottom 5.

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Well that is kind of what I am wondering: If frost T20 sucks why would blizz nerf it? Wouldn't it make sense to buff frost T20 if it does indeed suck. Or is his a case of "sky is falling" syndrome?

Not sure. I mean data says it must not suck but they could be way off in their own personal numbers. I will admit that I and many others noticed how absolutely stupidly broken it was when Pillar lasted over 45 seconds. Then they nerfed it to about... 32? I think it was around 32. Now it's about... 25.5? Once again: I think. Maybe the damage increase from the 2 and 4 set is actually nuts and they really had to reign in the damage and that's fine. I can accept that. I guess most people are just very upset that we went from increasing our PoF by almost 30 seconds (1.5x the original duration even) to about 6 seconds.


I'm also willing to bet that if the 2 set read "Your Pillar of Frost now lasts 6 seconds longer" more people would be outraged. The 2 set is basically a bunch of cool-sounding bullshit that equates to that anyway. It's like when adds sell you stuff from buzzwords.

[Deleted]

Well that is kind of what I am wondering: If frost T20 sucks why would blizz nerf it? Wouldn't it make sense to buff frost T20 if it does indeed suck. Or is his a case of "sky is falling" syndrome?

He just has no clue. Pre latest nerf T20 was 12% dps gain.

And UH isnt strong at single target either. DKs are back to mediocre/bad at single target while great at aoe/cleave in many cases. A top 100 dk told me that it will peobably be 5 fights frost/ 4 fights unholy in TOS.

Looking at NH logs i think he is right.

[Ange]

Actually, mass aoe unholy is incredibly strong. Frost beats it at cleave, not aoe.

I am not sure if this is true anymore.

Playing with Unholy_914_bracer_newRing the whole week and the passive AoE/cleave is just insane. AoE burst with DnD and new_ring is way over Sindragosa Fury and you can still upgrade your AoE with helmet/new_ring for even more AoE.

The cooldown management for unholy with bracer/ring is much easier than anything else BoS Frost included. 2 CDs every ~1.5 mins without much preparation (2-3 globals max) are not hard to manage. With the passive cleave and the AoE overdrive with DnD you will never be frustrated like with frost and bad luck at HB procs.

[Deleted]

I am not sure if this is true anymore.

Playing with Unholy_914_bracer_newRing the whole week and the passive AoE/cleave is just insane. AoE burst with DnD and new_ring is way over Sindragosa Fury and you can still upgrade your AoE with helmet/new_ring for even more AoE.

The cooldown management for unholy with bracer/ring is much easier than anything else BoS Frost included. 2 CDs every ~1.5 mins without much preparation (2-3 globals max) are not hard to manage. With the passive cleave and the AoE overdrive with DnD you will never be frustrated like with frost and bad luck at HB procs.

Yes, but with that setup you give up single target. Right now Frost's strenght is that it has a good build for everything while UH has either a strong ST build, strong AoE build or strong cleave build. But you are sacrificing damage in different departments for that.

On the whole Frost vs UH topic, when HN came out people were saying BoS will be unplayable in NH, especially on bosses like Elisande, and Frost DKs still made it worl, and that with long ass breaths. T20 should make breaths shorter but stronger afaik.

And in the end, for 99%+ of people here it doesn't matter what class they raid as. And lol @ sims, frost was mediocore in t19 sims compared to other classes but strong in the actual raid.

[Ange]

Right now Frost's strenght is that it has a good build for everything while UH has either a strong ST build, strong AoE build or strong cleave build.

I can only speak about my gearlevel (914-916) but every unholy combination with bracer/ring/helmet/trinket/shoulder is above my Frost BoS with wrist/ring/belt/helmet combination. Currently my unholy setup with bracer/ring is 70k above my Frost BoS setup (both 914 ilvl).

I got 17 DPS legendarys, both weapons at 56 and 57 and with tons of mix gear with different secondary stats. Maybe you guys got perfect Frost BoS gear but with my gear selection unholy is way above frost, is easier to play and I dont even have the max legendarys setup with chest/schoulders.

[Deleted]

I can only speak about my gearlevel (914-916) but every unholy combination with bracer/ring/helmet/trinket/shoulder is above my Frost BoS with wrist/ring/belt/helmet combination. Currently my unholy setup with bracer/ring is 70k above my Frost BoS setup (both 914 ilvl).

I got 17 DPS legendarys, both weapons at 56 and 57 and with tons of mix gear with different secondary stats. Maybe you guys got perfect Frost BoS gear but with my gear selection unholy is way above frost, is easier to play and I dont even have the max legendarys setup with chest/schoulders.

Simcraft isn't relevant for comparison Unholy <-> Frost...

Simcraft is only here to compare certain set bonuses, gear, stat weights and stuff. It never ever compares performance with any other spec.

And higesht legendary combo is currently T20 + Bracer + Chest. Don't forget to switch Freezing Fog to Horn of Winter for T20.

[hasslehoof]

Yes, but with that setup you give up single target. Right now Frost's strenght is that it has a good build for everything while UH has either a strong ST build, strong AoE build or strong cleave build. But you are sacrificing damage in different departments for that.

On the whole Frost vs UH topic, when HN came out people were saying BoS will be unplayable in NH, especially on bosses like Elisande, and Frost DKs still made it worl, and that with long ass breaths. T20 should make breaths shorter but stronger afaik.

And in the end, for 99%+ of people here it doesn't matter what class they raid as. And lol @ sims, frost was mediocore in t19 sims compared to other classes but strong in the actual raid.

Pretty much this. Frost will be fine in ToS, sims have been a meme all of Legion, idk why ANYONE would trust them, esp the shitty Patchwerk ones they throw out on their front page.

[meumaxu]

Pretty much this. Frost will be fine in ToS, sims have been a meme all of Legion, idk why ANYONE would trust them, esp the shitty Patchwerk ones they throw out on their front page.

Yeah sure we will be fine after tons of nerfs and fights with lots of movement where we cant keep our BoS up for even 10s... We´ll suck hard and demanded to turn UH or stay out of progression

[Deleted]

Yeah sure we will be fine after tons of nerfs and fights with lots of movement where we cant keep our BoS up for even 10s... We´ll suck hard and demanded to turn UH or stay out of progression

I watched all video guides and you are completely talking bull shit. There isn't a lot of movement (where is that rumour coming from?), there's definitely some 2 target cleave (where frost is king).

And if you cant keep up breath 10s, it's just your fault. It's our job to use breath when we have some uptime on boss and you sound like all melees are basically useless in TOS. Because no melee is good when he has less than 90% uptime on targets (actually it's more like 95% because of how powerful ranged are).

[RuneDK]

Clearing normal and first three bosses on heroic I have to say the raid is pretty bland to me. The fights arent that great. Frost has times to shine as well. There are only a couple where I felt being frost was stupid(Fallen Avatar especially). The one thing that did stick out to me(mostly cause of bad rng) was the fact that we don't have any on demand aoe if we're still running gathering storm. On Harjatan or Mistress it fucking blows having to rely on RNG to be on your side with Rime procs. I really hope they look at FSc and make it baseline, fix obliteration(which the idea behind it I think would shine in TOS if BoS wasn't the go to). We're losing 20% proc chance on rime(once we replace 2pc T19...idk...i dont think it will be terrible...but dont think it will be middle ground either. We'll see what happens as we transition to T20 and new legendaries.

[Icedcoffeee]

The one thing that did stick out to me(mostly cause of bad rng) was the fact that we don't have any on demand aoe if we're still running gathering storm. On Harjatan or Mistress it fucking blows having to rely on RNG to be on your side with Rime procs. I really hope they look at FSc and make it baseline, fix obliteration.

Having only done a few heroic fights, I can definitely see our builds switching around quite a bit for just this reason. I'm interested to see if the new ring (default Gathering Storm) is viable, since we can just Remorseless, then basically alternate FScyth and Rime. Even if not, at least on Mistress, having FScyth seems like it will probably be preferable until the raid seriously outgears the fight.

[RuneDK]

Having only done a few heroic fights, I can definitely see our builds switching around quite a bit for just this reason. I'm interested to see if the new ring (default Gathering Storm) is viable, since we can just Remorseless, then basically alternate FScyth and Rime. Even if not, at least on Mistress, having FScyth seems like it will probably be preferable until the raid seriously outgears the fight.

Our builds will definitely fluctuate a bit per fight once we get T20 and dont have the reliance on Rime procs. Otherwise we wont have good aoe damage unless we get lucky. FSc seems mandatory for a couple of those fights.

[Deleted]

do we still use BoS with T20?

[meumaxu]

UH is far better than Frost on Tos and we dont get any buffs... blizzard sucks

[Deleted]

I'm switching back to Unholy because it scales a lot better with ToS progression.
In addition to that, Unholy T20 is superior.