[7.3] Azortharion's Hunter Guides

[Coldfire989]

Simple Solution - Don't use his guides. He's doing this out of his own time. Instead of criticizing the man, be productive and make your own guides since you obviously know more due to your capability to criticize.

Horrible solution and when writing for a site like IV you should be able to take criticism anyway. I doubt Azor cares one bit what people think of what he writes. In fact you should message him on discord with feedback I hear he loves that.

[Eapoe]

As far as criticizing, that's completely valid and fair. There's even been a few times (in this thread no less) where people have pointed out errors and Azor has corrected them and updated the guide accordingly.
The issue is most people aren't criticizing his guides for being wrong or inaccurate, and instead are launching personal attacks against Azor with statements about him not giving a shit. I don't know about everyone else, but I've played long enough and read his guides often enough to pick up on that Azor plays the spec that performs best AND helps his guild the most on progression. Sometimes, those things conflict, but most often they do not. He's even gone so far in the past to write step by step guides on a per boss basis of best performing specs, itemization for those bosses, and how to handle mechanics. If that doesn't demonstrate to people that he tries to keep up with all specs performance and ability to be in the raid, then you are seriously some misguided people just looking for someone to blame that a spec you don't like isn't the top performing one.

[Inuyaki]

Mistakes in BM guide:
Introduction 4:
Both new legendaries are not mediocre... depending on your gear they can both be bis
Spell Summary 3:
Beast Cleave does not work on Dire Frenzy attacks
Spell Summary 5:
Wild Call procs do not reduce the DF cd by 3sec, but give a charge...
Spell Summary 7:
Maybe I overlook something here... how does Turtle heal for 48% (I am actually not sure if I miss something here)
Builds 1.2:
Why OwtP for aoe?
Relics 3:
That table is definately wrong. Jaws and Pack can't be equally strong, as both buff KC but with different values.
Rotation 7.1:
Why use Arcane Shot as an example instead of just using DB/DF? Nitpicking though :P
Rotation 7.2:
Technically incorrect, a majority of our dmg is pet damage
Rotation 7.4.1:
DB/DF reduce BW cd by 12seconds, not 15
Rotation 7.4.3:
DF should not be used on cooldown.
Also I doubt you use CS on cd if BW is ready in 2-3sec, but I could be wrong here, my CS knowledge is pretty non-existant atm

I think that's it for now, at least I didn't see anything else on my fast review

[ydraw]

He favors the top DPS spec and it's been MM this entire expansion.

BM has been the top DPS spec for all of nighthold and most of ToV, so more than half the expansion. Since ToV launched, MM has only been ahead of BM on AOE fights - Helya, Skorpyron, Spellblade and Tichondrius. BM is ahead - and has been ahead - on every other fight.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as criticizing, that's completely valid and fair. There's even been a few times (in this thread no less) where people have pointed out errors and Azor has corrected them and updated the guide accordingly.
The issue is most people aren't criticizing his guides for being wrong or inaccurate, and instead are launching personal attacks against Azor with statements about him not giving a shit. I don't know about everyone else, but I've played long enough and read his guides often enough to pick up on that Azor plays the spec that performs best AND helps his guild the most on progression.

Azor before he quit posting was actively trolling BM players on these forums. Stop trying to defend the guy.

Use Azor's guide if you want to play MM. If you want to play a different spec look elsewhere.

[durrtygoodz]

BM has been the top DPS spec for all of nighthold and most of ToV, so more than half the expansion. Since ToV launched, MM has only been ahead of BM on AOE fights - Helya, Skorpyron, Spellblade and Tichondrius. BM is ahead - and has been ahead - on every other fight.

Fuck you on about. MM was SLAYIN in ToV, and BM only pulled ahead a bit in Nighthold after 7.2 - which came after progress.

[ydraw]

Fuck you on about. MM was SLAYIN in ToV, and BM only pulled ahead a bit in Nighthold after 7.2 - which came after progress.

Neither of these things are true. BM was already ahead of MM on single target in ToV. Most people just chose to stay MM because it was by far the best spec for the hardest fight which happened to require spread AOE.

[durrtygoodz]

Neither of these things are true. BM was already ahead of MM on single target in ToV. Most people just chose to stay MM because it was by far the best spec for the hardest fight which happened to require spread AOE.

It wasn't ahead ST, but even so, Being ahead on single =/= being better, does it now. Apply brain cells.

[Deleted]

Thank you for the guide!

[Deleted]

God, no. Is it that time of the month again where BM and MM fight it out against who has/had the best spec? Please, no.

[st33l]

That's because, MM has been by far the best raiding spec this expansion. Barring of course a brief glimmer of hope for BM after 7.2, but that was after NH progress for a lot of people so it didn't matter. The guides are written for raiders not roleplayers, and since 90% of discord is filled with "hi guys what's best spec?", what do you expect to be said in the guide?

You can play what you want nobody's stopping you. But like I said, most people reading a guide literally just want the simple answer as to what they should play.

You're kidding right? 1 raid out of 3 does not 'most of the expansion' make.

EN: 7.0-7.1: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#
MM > BM

ToV: 7.1.5: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#region=2
BM > MM

NH: 7.2: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
BM > MM


Yet, in EVERY one of those patches, the Azor's guide has always said that MM > BM.
It is no secret that Azor likes MM as a spec more than any other; always has. I am just tired of having to weed out his bias from his guides over and over again.

Maybe MM this time will actually be a better spec. We'll see. The guide saying so? means fuck-all.

[Shakou]

Azor trolls too much, he only parses high by his raid setting him up and not target switching, and uh he's just too damn arrogant and out of touch.

Used to be guys like Landsoul, the creator of the famous warrior spread sheet we used to use, you'd hit them up in game and they would talk to you and point out where you can find the data to look at. Azor posts simplified guides and hides his data and treats everyone with contempt.

My god I miss elitist jerks. The guild/forum not Azor who is an actual elitist jerk.

[Deleted]

Well then, maybe Azor should just delete his SV and BM guides.
If he plays MM and likes it more - then he has a reason to do so. In the end, a guide from a player is still a guide from a player and bias is always involved.

My personal opinion of BM is biased too, I think it sucks at literally everything other than boss tunneling.
So I can see where he is comming from.

And I don't see why this is a problem in the first place.

[Keren]

not to mention that BM can do full dps on the move where as MM has to stand still. And depending on the fights in tomb, even if MM sims higher atm, Bm might be the specc togo simply because of that reason.

[Captain Proton]

You're kidding right? 1 raid out of 3 does not 'most of the expansion' make.

EN: 7.0-7.1: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#
MM > BM

ToV: 7.1.5: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#region=2
BM > MM

NH: 7.2: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
BM > MM


Yet, in EVERY one of those patches, the Azor's guide has always said that MM > BM.
It is no secret that Azor likes MM as a spec more than any other; always has. I am just tired of having to weed out his bias from his guides over and over again.

Maybe MM this time will actually be a better spec. We'll see. The guide saying so? means fuck-all.

Shouldn't you use 7.0-7.1 for ToV since at 7.1.5, progression was pretty much over w/ NH release? Same with using 7.2 on NH. You're using selective data to filter out when progression was pretty much over and not clearly representing the full length of time the tier was out.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#region=1

[st33l]

Well then, maybe Azor should just delete his SV and BM guides.
If he plays MM and likes it more - then he has a reason to do so. In the end, a guide from a player is still a guide from a player and bias is always involved.

My personal opinion of BM is biased too, I think it sucks at literally everything other than boss tunneling.
So I can see where he is comming from.

And I don't see why this is a problem in the first place.

I didn't say it is a problem. All it means is that I (personally) am not going to trust his opinion on which spec will be better in a given tier - that is all I said in my post earlier.

I only replied to my post quote to correct the assertion that MM has been the best raiding spec for a majority of the expansion - which at least in DPS, it clearly hasn't.

- - - Updated - - -

Shouldn't you use 7.0-7.1 for ToV since at 7.1.5, progression was pretty much over w/ NH release? Same with using 7.2 on NH. You're using selective data to filter out when progression was pretty much over and not clearly representing the full length of time the tier was out.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#region=1

Ah, you are correct. 7.1.5 was one week before NH came out. So then if we break it down by total time; BM has been the top spec about half the expac; or in 1 raid out of 3 (to be fair though, 1 10 boss raid, versus 2 raids with a total of 10 bosses).

This still doesn't change the fact that with the release of 7.1.5 and 7.2, the guide still said that MM is the goto spec for raiding. So it changes the guide from being 66% wrong to 50% wrong.

[Tehterokkar]

For BM players, there are currently 2 viable builds in NH and ToS, the DF/BF build and the Stomp/OwtP build.

From my own and a guildie Hunter's sims we found out that the 2 builds are extremely close in DPS(within a few thousand) with T19 4pc and T19 2pc/T20 4pc sims.

T20 favors DF/BF, but Stomp/OwtP scales much better(stat weights are about 20-30% higher in all categories for Stomp/OwtP for me).

Beast Cannon build will most likely outscale the DF build really fast, and is also better for farm content due to having 2 stomps burst for add spawns.

[Dracodraco]

You're kidding right? 1 raid out of 3 does not 'most of the expansion' make.

EN: 7.0-7.1: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#
MM > BM

ToV: 7.1.5: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#region=2
BM > MM

NH: 7.2: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
BM > MM


Yet, in EVERY one of those patches, the Azor's guide has always said that MM > BM.
It is no secret that Azor likes MM as a spec more than any other; always has. I am just tired of having to weed out his bias from his guides over and over again.

Maybe MM this time will actually be a better spec. We'll see. The guide saying so? means fuck-all.

In fairness, you're counting farm which is highly irrelevant to the purpose of the guide; BM didn't start pulling ahead of MM till killtimes got short enough that the superior singletarget burst (and all cleave/adds dying in an instant because of the power gain, making MM's main niche of semi-sustained AOE, like on Spellblade, much less desired/useful) was valued over MM's ability to target switch (waiting for your pet to dash all the way to the back of Krosus platform to deal any significant damage to the small adds, then back to the boss is pretty painful), or even bigger range (which was useful on a number of encounters; Off the top of my head:

Spellblade - able to stand further away than anyone else making MM ideal for the mark-soakers furthest from the boss, who would usually otherwise have slight range issues at times, depending on tactic of course.

Tich - able to stand out during visions behind the furthest pillar and still reach boss, for the no-break tactic.

Elisande - range of blue add to interrupt even when far away (especially crucial for recursion during rings in p2).

Guldan - argueably, being able to give other people more space in P2 is extremely valueable as that's one of the three main reasons to bring as few ranged as possible (the other two being making the P1 check, as ranged are running a lot from hellfires, and Parasite damage in P3). MM did some of the best P1 damage out of ranged though.


Point ultimately being, looking at logs is stupid. Looking at damage on logs is not reflective of what the best progress spec is. This tier, it was MM, hands down; The only point where BM could beat MM was pure singletarget tunneling, and that was only realistically the main priority of one fight (star augur). Anything involving adds, target switching, positioning etc MM>BM.

[Khrux]

Overall NH in 7.2 - Play what you like: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=90

As of 7.2.5, MM is the strongest hunter spec in Nighthold overall: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=90&region=3
Is it far enough ahead to abandon your current spec for it? No.
Does it even matter to 90% of posters on mmo-c? No.
Does it translate to ToS performance? Not yet.
Are sims based on patchwerk and not representative of hectic mythic fights? Yes.

TLDR; stick to whatever your currently playing, the difference is small enough that individual performance, experience and optimal gearing will out weight what a sim dictates should be the higher theoretical dps.

[Inuyaki]

For BM players, there are currently 2 viable builds in NH and ToS, the DF/BF build and the Stomp/OwtP build.

From my own and a guildie Hunter's sims we found out that the 2 builds are extremely close in DPS(within a few thousand) with T19 4pc and T19 2pc/T20 4pc sims.

T20 favors DF/BF, but Stomp/OwtP scales much better(stat weights are about 20-30% higher in all categories for Stomp/OwtP for me).

Beast Cannon build will most likely outscale the DF build really fast, and is also better for farm content due to having 2 stomps burst for add spawns.

Can you say at approx what ilvl Stomp will be better (is better in your sims)? Do we talk about 925 or 930 or 940?
Do you think it will be relevant during progression already or only later?

[durrtygoodz]

You're kidding right? 1 raid out of 3 does not 'most of the expansion' make.

EN: 7.0-7.1: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#
MM > BM

ToV: 7.1.5: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#region=2
BM > MM

NH: 7.2: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
BM > MM


Yet, in EVERY one of those patches, the Azor's guide has always said that MM > BM.
It is no secret that Azor likes MM as a spec more than any other; always has. I am just tired of having to weed out his bias from his guides over and over again.

Maybe MM this time will actually be a better spec. We'll see. The guide saying so? means fuck-all.

Don't reply to me if you don't even read my posts. Nobody gives a shit what's good AFTER PROGRESSION.