more tuning for Aff and Destro on the 20th (damage of all abilities reduced by 5%)

[Deleted]

@Gaidax :
"What i don't want and fear for destru:" + "are gonna"
=> doesn't imply only destru tuning but other spec in the following weeks.

It's great now, i just don't want it to slowly fall to the bottom like it did with 7.2.5.

And for M+, we still don't have as many tools as other are bringing for High M+ (instant stun, interrupt, immune) and still have the burning rush vs survivability talent row.

[Walrock]

@Gaidax :
"What i don't want and fear for destru:" + "are gonna"
=> doesn't imply only destru tuning but other spec in the following weeks.

It's great now, i just don't want it to slowly fall to the bottom like it did with 7.2.5.

And for M+, we still don't have as many tools as other are bringing for High M+ (instant stun, interrupt, immune) and still have the burning rush vs survivability talent row.

What? Like, what?

7.2.5 is only 5-6 days old, how can it be a "like it did with" case? (you probably mean 7.2?)

And our toolkit for M+ is great, we have a ranged, 4sec aoe stun with only 30sec cd (perfect for sephuz).
We can get a second small aoe stun from our infernal.
We can get an interrupt if we need one.
We have a 1min deff cd (which is quite low for such a strong cd).
And burning rush is not really necessary, since you can pop a speedpot at the part were we need it (e.g. the run between the 3rd and 4th warden bosses).

[Gaidax]

@Gaidax :
"What i don't want and fear for destru:" + "are gonna"
=> doesn't imply only destru tuning but other spec in the following weeks.

It's great now, i just don't want it to slowly fall to the bottom like it did with 7.2.5.

And for M+, we still don't have as many tools as other are bringing for High M+ (instant stun, interrupt, immune) and still have the burning rush vs survivability talent row.

Short CD AoE stun, Brez and balls to the wall survivability are more than many other specs have and on top of that with with 7.2.5 great damage too.

Don't see how 5% nerf will suddenly change that, neither subsequent weeks.

Difference between 7.1.5 and 7.2.5 is that in one case Destruction was already weak, while on 7.2.5 it's amongst the top dog specs and you really don't drop from top to bottom just like that.

At the very worst case scenario you will go from top to average and judging by history spec that starts tier strong does not suddenly become shit and it's literally first time since Legion launch when Destruction is legit strong.

[Deleted]

With 7.2.

*The tunning is only for the NM / HM, and we are still gonna really strong compared to other class.
*This nerf was to be expected but could have been refined.
*More tunning is expected before the opening of mythic and after the first week of mythic.

M+ tookit or toolkit in general is another subject.
Toolkit is ok, but could be better : we can't react to something unplanned.
AoE stun is good but the casting time make us unable to fast CC an add (when every body on the vocal is saying kick ! kick ! kick !).
Ofc we can use the felhunter to kick but you still need to plan it before hand (for boss like Medivh).
For burning rush, I'm not talking about long distance running but to avoid some ability (all can be avoided if you plan before hand, but sometime you screw up).

Things I'm complaining : -5% dmg in AoE is gonna hurt Destru.

[Fleckens]

With 7.2.

*The tunning is only for the NM / HM, and we are still gonna really strong compared to other class.
*This nerf was to be expected but could have been refined.
*More tunning is expected before the opening of mythic and after the first week of mythic.

M+ tookit or toolkit in general is another subject.
Toolkit is ok, but could be better : we can't react to something unplanned.
AoE stun is good but the casting time make us unable to fast CC an add (when every body on the vocal is saying kick ! kick ! kick !).
Ofc we can use the felhunter to kick but you still need to plan it before hand (for boss like Medivh).
For burning rush, I'm not talking about long distance running but to avoid some ability (all can be avoided if you plan before hand, but sometime you screw up).

Things I'm complaining : -5% dmg in AoE is gonna hurt Destru.

Just plan your stun in advance, that's how mind bomb works as well.

[Gaidax]

With 7.2... blah blah

When 7.1.5 or 7.2 came out Destro wasn't owning everyone, except for 1-2 specs on logs, but was eating dust.

It is quite a different situation now and 5% is nothing at all. It's literally nothing and it won't hurt anything seeing the state Destruction is in on logs.

[Deleted]

@Gaidax :
"What i don't want and fear for destru:" + "are gonna"
=> doesn't imply only destru tuning but other spec in the following weeks.

It's great now, i just don't want it to slowly fall to the bottom like it did with 7.2.5.

And for M+, we still don't have as many tools as other are bringing for High M+ (instant stun, interrupt, immune) and still have the burning rush vs survivability talent row.

Destro fell because affli was insanely overpowered. If you have 2 strong and 1 FOTM spec, the weaker specs will always look weak because of top players gravitating to the strongest spec.

- - - Updated - - -

When 7.1.5 or 7.2 came out Destro wasn't owning everyone, except for 1-2 specs on logs, but was eating dust.

It is quite a different situation now and 5% is nothing at all. It's literally nothing and it won't hurt anything seeing the state Destruction is in on logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...#timespan=1000

Destro was never strong in logs.

[xuros]

Destro fell because affli was insanely overpowered. If you have 2 strong and 1 FOTM spec, the weaker specs will always look weak because of top players gravitating to the strongest spec.

- - - Updated - - -



https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...#timespan=1000

Destro was never strong in logs.

Do you even destro? Destro is quite good now.

[Apero]

Do you even destro? Destro is quite good now.

Yes, now. When everyone has their tier 20 4pc it would have been decent, but probably not even top 5, how does that justify a 5% nerf?

[Bjarkan]

Yes, now. When everyone has their tier 20 4pc it would have been decent, but probably not even top 5, how does that justify a 5% nerf?

If Blizz doesnt change the t20-4p and the Mastery scaling, a good chain of buffed Chaos Bolt could be very bursty... But we only could see it when tunnin is done, and Tomb arrive.

[Deleted]

I mean I get why someone would complain on the destro, since Blizzard bothered to do all this change and make the rotation smooth and make cleave meaningful instead of brainless Havoc uptime on no cd, and soulshard fragments etc, it'd be fair to let them keep some "cheese" and be happy.

But affli? Please! The spec was religion all through NH and the reason ppl complain is because they all opted for it and spent their resources there and just want things to remain the same.

I was doing 4,5 fking million DPS ( DPS not dmg) on Skorpyron with affli as an Os with poor weapon ilvl and no spec-specific legos and even was on par for ST dmg on tyranical +19 with ppl 10ilvl higher so yeah.... it only seems fair on affli..

[Krunklock]

I mean I get why someone would complain on the destro, since Blizzard bothered to do all this change and make the rotation smooth and make cleave meaningful instead of brainless Havoc uptime on no cd, and soulshard fragments etc, it'd be fair to let them keep some "cheese" and be happy.

But affli? Please! The spec was religion all through NH and the reason ppl complain is because they all opted for it and spent their resources there and just want things to remain the same.

I was doing 4,5 fking million DPS ( DPS not dmg) on Skorpyron with affli as an Os with poor weapon ilvl and no spec-specific legos and even was on par for ST dmg on tyranical +19 with ppl 10ilvl higher so yeah.... it only seems fair on affli..

Yeah, and 4.1 fking million of that DPS was just from Soul Flame using the stupid cheese method. Who fucking cares about Skorp?

[Gangresnake]

But affli? Please! The spec was religion all through NH and the reason ppl complain is because they all opted for it and spent their resources there and just want things to remain the same.

Except affli was benchwarmer tier for NH MM progress because it couldnt swap or burst for shit.
You pretty much win on every logs/sim but that doesnt help you much when your entire raid wipe because bursting adds is essential.

When 7.1 Simcraft dropped the general consensus was : "Affli broken, RIP DH"
When the time for killing Guldan MM came the consensus was stacking Havoc DH and benching the locks, as in, not a single affli appearing in the top 5 kills despite their YUUUGE numbers.

Skorpyron padding

Who give a fuck.

I dont know how ToS will fare for affli personally. I think it will come down more to encounter design than basic class tuning honestly, but your "prediction" are based on falses premises.

[Deleted]

Except affli was benchwarmer tier for NH MM progress because it couldnt swap or burst for shit.
You pretty much win on every logs/sim but that doesnt help you much when your entire raid wipe because bursting adds is essential.

When 7.1 Simcraft dropped the general consensus was : "Affli broken, RIP DH"
When the time for killing Guldan MM came the consensus was stacking Havoc DH and benching the locks, as in, not a single affli appearing in the top 5 kills despite their YUUUGE numbers.


Who give a fuck.

I dont know how ToS will fare for affli personally. I think it will come down more to encounter design than basic class tuning honestly, but your "prediction" are based on falses premises.

So unless I got it wrong , ya all MM cutting edge raiders concerned with these details, or u compare these ppl who killed MM Guldan on a what like 900-905 ilvl, then u compare it to months of farming that can get ppl to like what 905-915 ilvl and assume that class strength remains the same? Or that a geared affli like that would face these issues? LoL

Its why u dont run 15 warlock dps to begin with mate, everyone has to shine on something

[Walrock]

So unless I got it wrong , ya all MM cutting edge raiders concerned with these details, or u compare these ppl who killed MM Guldan on a what like 900-905 ilvl, then u compare it to months of farming that can get ppl to like what 905-915 ilvl and assume that class strength remains the same? Or that a geared affli like that would face these issues? LoL

Its why u dont run 15 warlock dps to begin with mate, everyone has to shine on something

Wth is MM? Are we all marksman raider who killed marksman guldan?
And what are those sentences? I can barely see any sense there.


All specs will be viable damage wise, Destro is currently just the better raid progress spec BY DESIGN.

[slickwilly]

Destro will suffer in ToS with all the movement. It will suck the same as it did in NH. The bit of burst destro brings really doesn't matter and it's self healing is crappy compared to aff. Healing a destro lock is a chore. Herp a derp let me lifetap for a damage boost and gimp my healers constantly.

[Deleted]

Destro will suffer in ToS with all the movement. It will suck the same as it did in NH. The bit of burst destro brings really doesn't matter and it's self healing is crappy compared to aff. Healing a destro lock is a chore. Herp a derp let me lifetap for a damage boost and gimp my healers constantly.

Movement just forces to play smarter... know when movement happens, plan for and around it. Then it won't have that much of an impact on your dps.

Unfortunately I have to agree with the aff self-heal. VERY hard to beat this given that you can ignore much more boss abilities simply because you will heal yourself back up without much tax on the healers. It's not about life tapping (that'll be healed away by hots/aoe heals anyway), but for example standing in the purple circle when the add spawns in Guldan mythic, in order to keep draining, you're back to full life in less than 2 seconds without any (or much) external heal. Doing this as destro, you will take 40% less damage but then still need to be healed back for 2M HP, taxing your healers.

If affli and destro have a similar output, affli will already win in progress just because it's one less person to heal... And the meme about less priority damage is also just that. If you WANT to, you can have priority damage as affli also, you just sacrifice a bit more main target damage.

[SpikeySquad]

Destro will suffer in ToS with all the movement. It will suck the same as it did in NH. The bit of burst destro brings really doesn't matter and it's self healing is crappy compared to aff. Healing a destro lock is a chore. Herp a derp let me lifetap for a damage boost and gimp my healers constantly.

ELT is so 7.2 (unless going full AoE). Or the ring I guess but that's totally optional.

[Deleted]

"Destro will suck with all the movement" , yeah because every other ranged DPS has insane mobility right ? And personally I like the 1 min unending resolve cd more with destro than self healing with aff. Stop being so biased about one spec and just play what you want please.

[Deleted]

But affli? Please! The spec was religion all through NH and the reason ppl complain is because they all opted for it and spent their resources there and just want things to remain the same.

Not on prgression it wasn't. Affliction's target switching and lack of burst weaknesses meant it was a poor choice for progression, generally speaking. Moreover, affliction was middl eof the pack for most of Nighthold, it only jumped ahead when they changed the adds so that pretty much everything proc'd wrath of consumption stacks and shards and souls. You only need to look atthe logs thatwere before 7.2 and then after.

Suddenly affliction jumped up so much that many players thought that 7.2 had brought in a bug where all the adds proc'd affliction's on-death effects by mistake, the increase in damage was so big that players thought it was an unintentional change that would get reverted

Before then the top locks like Terryn actually published tables for each boss showing which adds would proc what buffs and resources because it was all over th eplace

I was doing 4,5 fking million DPS ( DPS not dmg) on Skorpyron with affli as an Os with poor weapon ilvl and no spec-specific legos and even was on par for ST dmg on tyranical +19 with ppl 10ilvl higher so yeah.... it only seems fair on affli..

Please, how many bosses are there like Skorpyron? That's just a crazy AOE spam fest, and most of the damage comes from Soul FLame cascades, it requires a raid to do a "stack the adds" thing.

Also in dungeons you are allowed to carry over masses of tormented souls and a full five shards, in raids these resources are reset on pull. Plus in a M+ if you do it right you can go into a boss with a maximum Wrath of Consumption stack

Look, no one is saying that affliction wasn;t really, really good in Nighthold.

The important thing is to understand what made it that good and why it won;t apply in Sargeras because the Sargeras encounters do not feature tons of little adds to cheese buffs off.

If you want to see a comparable boss look at Trilliax. Affliction's damage drops a LOT on that because the robots don;t die so you don;t get souls/shards/Wrath stacks off them. Trilliax makes it very very obvious what, exactly, is going on with affliction. I remember that before 7.2 Shadow Priests stomped all over affliction on Botanist. Then 7.2 came along and suddenly the flowers and shit all procced WOC and gave shards and souls and hey, look suddenly affliction was top there.


Affliction's "overpowered" state comes from a raid where it has self-buffs that are a 40-50% damage increase up for excessive times. Which it won;t in Sargeras.

Itwill be a middl eof the pack atbest. Doing a 5% blanket nerf based on Nighthold data is crazy for affliction. It's OK for destruction (and arms warriors) because their strength is innate, and they'd carry it into Sargeras because they aren;t dependent on dumbass kill-the-adds-for-a-buff mechanics thatworks too well in NH.

It's just amazing how greatplayers can;t see beyond log numbers and examine context. If a spec is apparently doing too well you need to examine why it is doing too well.

Let's take a hypothetical example. There's a raid where the bosses take 50% extra damage if it's Shadow. Hey classes that use Shadow damage are doing really really well there. What an amaziing surprise that would be!

So would you nerf those classes for the next raid where the Shadow damage bonus no longer exists? Would you nerf the Shadow users so they did the same as everyone else in the super-amazing-for-shadow raid?

Context is everything. Fuck me even Blizzard do not take those dps-ranking logs seriously.

Except for one thing. They know the players takethem seriously, and they hand out nerfs and buffs to pander to player perceptions as much as anything else.

- - - Updated - - -

Movement just forces to play smarter... know when movement happens, plan for and around it. Then it won't have that much of an impact on your dps.

Unfortunately I have to agree with the aff self-heal. VERY hard to beat this given that you can ignore much more boss abilities simply because you will heal yourself back up without much tax on the healers. It's not about life tapping (that'll be healed away by hots/aoe heals anyway), but for example standing in the purple circle when the add spawns in Guldan mythic, in order to keep draining, you're back to full life in less than 2 seconds without any (or much) external heal. Doing this as destro, you will take 40% less damage but then still need to be healed back for 2M HP, taxing your healers.

If affli and destro have a similar output, affli will already win in progress just because it's one less person to heal... And the meme about less priority damage is also just that. If you WANT to, you can have priority damage as affli also, you just sacrifice a bit more main target damage.

I think that the counter-argument to this is that destruction has more ability to survive certain mechanics - if something does more damage than your health pool then all the of the self-healing in the world will not help you as you will die, whereas a short damage mitigation cooldown will enable you to live through it even if you have to be healed up after

It's swings and roundabouts I think.

Sure you can have priority damage as afflic but it's really shit. As destro you can line up a couple of chaos bolts, as affli you'd have to take Haunt and then pray your UA's crit.