Help Sim TV/GS

[Deleted]

Hey guys !

I am quite confused atm. Since the 7.2.5 some people consider going GS and on my part I am completely lost.

I am currently still playing TV and i am not planning to change at least until ToS. But once in ToS should i aim for a GS build?

To see the difference i Simed myself while in TV showing ~830k. While in GS i was at ~770k. I am currently at 30% crit, 16% haste, 30% mastery, 11% versa. I read that GS needs more versa/mastery and the crit cap is more important so i tried to change some gear but i kept on losing DPS and the stat weights never changes(TV or GS) : Haste > Int ~= Crit > Vers > Mastery despite reading that haste was supposed to be the last.

I really don't know what to do. I don't really care about gameplay as long as i play the current best.

I'm at a point where I don't know which items i should be aiming for in ToS and i can't seem to understand my stat weights. This is a nightmare.

Hope you can help, thanks.

[chuckslol]

TV and GS are very close to each other in T20 mythic gear level, its only like 10k or less difference if i remember correctly.
I personally will stay TV because i can't stand playing GS, or switch back to fire if the numbers look reasonably close.
Anyway to answer your question, GS stat weights changes a lot depending on what gear you have equipped atm, you just have to keep simming your character with different gear sets to see which one gives you the best result. There is no general best stat for GS spec but you want to be shatter capped (33.4% crit) and a mixed balanced of other stats.
You can also go to alteredtime forum there's a detailed post about GS spec from one of the top mages there.

goodluck

[Xinder]

Raidbots.com will help you sim yourself without having to download simcraft to your own computer. You just need the simcraft addon to get your character info or you can import on the site from the armory.

[Zenfoldor]

Can someone post their GS opener, that guide is great, but it assumes I know more than I do about frost.

[Ambereldus]

Can someone post their GS opener, that guide is great, but it assumes I know more than I do about frost.

Go here for the GS guide Chuckslol mentioned.

I won't say mine is correct, but the following opener works consistently for me:
- Wait until about 2 seconds before pull (because of my haste)
- pre-use Potion (Potion of Prolonged Power, I'm not rich)
- pre-cast Icy Veins (I'm wrong here, use IV at same time as Lust. I'll keep it in because this is what I've practiced)
- pre-cast Ebonbolt
- (Lust if using on pull)
- Flurry (BF proc) (pull timer hits 0)
- Ice Lance
- Frozen Orb (hold for a second if boss will move)
Then follow the normal priority until IV drops:
- If FoF procs: Ice Lance
- If no FoF: Frost Bolt
- If BF proc with <3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL
- If BF proc with ≥3 icicles: save for GS
- GS when available, combo with Flurry and IL if I can

Note: This opener will change with T20 2p, i haven't figured out mine yet.

After that, the rotation proceeds as normal, and I likely only have a few seconds of Icy Veins left after casting GS. I normally get so many procs from Frozen Orb that I only get 1 GS in with the damage increase. I haven't simmed if its better to hold FO until after IV runs out so I can try to get 2 GS's into the major cooldown.

[Deleted]

Go here for the GS guide Chuckslol mentioned.

I won't say mine is correct, but the following opener works consistently for me:
- Wait until about 2 seconds until pull (because of my haste)
- pre-use Potion (Potion of Prolonged Power, I'm not rich)
- pre-cast Icy Veins
- pre-cast Ebonbolt
- (Lust if using on pull)
- Flurry (BF proc) (pull timer hits 0)
- Ice Lance
- Frozen Orb (hold for a second if boss will move)
- If FoF procs: Ice Lance
- If no FoF: Frost Bolt
- If BF proc with >3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL
- If BF proc with 3+ icicles: save for GS
- GS when available, combo with Flurry and IL

After that, the rotation proceeds as normal, and I likely only have a few seconds of Icy Veins left. I normally get so many procs from Frozen Orb that I only get 1 GS in with the damage increase. I haven't simmed if its better to hold FO until after IV runs out so I can try to get 2 GS's into the major cooldown.

dont precast icy veins, do it between ebonbolt and the flurry.
For Frost, dmg increasing talents as icy veins add they dmg when the cast (ebonbolt) hits the target, and not when it leaves your hands. Saves some seconds on IV ;-)

[Soulwell]

Go here for the GS guide Chuckslol mentioned.

I won't say mine is correct, but the following opener works consistently for me:
- Wait until about 2 seconds until pull (because of my haste)
- pre-use Potion (Potion of Prolonged Power, I'm not rich)
- pre-cast Icy Veins
- pre-cast Ebonbolt
- (Lust if using on pull)
- Flurry (BF proc) (pull timer hits 0)
- Ice Lance
- Frozen Orb (hold for a second if boss will move)
- If FoF procs: Ice Lance
- If no FoF: Frost Bolt
- If BF proc with >3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL
- If BF proc with 3+ icicles: save for GS
- GS when available, combo with Flurry and IL if I can

After that, the rotation proceeds as normal, and I likely only have a few seconds of Icy Veins left. I normally get so many procs from Frozen Orb that I only get 1 GS in with the damage increase. I haven't simmed if its better to hold FO until after IV runs out so I can try to get 2 GS's into the major cooldown.

This is going to be completely different once you get 2set.

[Ambereldus]

This is going to be completely different once you get 2set.

Yes, I should have qualified that. I haven't had a chance to change my rotation to the new set bonuses yet.

dont precast icy veins, do it between ebonbolt and the flurry.

I've always been confused by this, mostly coming from a DoT-based caster background when snapshotting was still a thing. To be honest, I've just been too lazy to prove this to myself, so I've always just erred on the side of caution.

[Xinder]

Go here for the GS guide Chuckslol mentioned.

I won't say mine is correct, but the following opener works consistently for me:
- Wait until about 2 seconds until pull (because of my haste)
- pre-use Potion (Potion of Prolonged Power, I'm not rich)
- pre-cast Icy Veins
- pre-cast Ebonbolt
- (Lust if using on pull)
- Flurry (BF proc) (pull timer hits 0)
- Ice Lance
- Frozen Orb (hold for a second if boss will move)
- If FoF procs: Ice Lance
- If no FoF: Frost Bolt
- If BF proc with >3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL
- If BF proc with 3+ icicles: save for GS
- GS when available, combo with Flurry and IL if I can

After that, the rotation proceeds as normal, and I likely only have a few seconds of Icy Veins left. I normally get so many procs from Frozen Orb that I only get 1 GS in with the damage increase. I haven't simmed if its better to hold FO until after IV runs out so I can try to get 2 GS's into the major cooldown.

I only have one quibble with your post.

This line: - If BF proc with >3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL
Should have "- If BF proc with < 3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL

Because you meant less than 3 icicles, not greater than.

[Ambereldus]

I only have one quibble with your post.

This line: - If BF proc with >3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL
Should have "- If BF proc with < 3 icicles: FB > Flurry > IL

Because you meant less than 3 icicles, not greater than.

Yes. Edited.
Too tired this morning, apparently.

[Deleted]

I see that a lot of people are switching GS... but why ? I keep reading than they are really close (saw TV a tiny bit ahead on the sim). If it's about gameplay i understand that some people have their preference but to see such a massive switch... I don't understand.

[skitzin]

Mostly because GS plays really well into a cleave playstyle with spliting ice. It's also because whilst TV is mathematically higher dps by a small margin in practice it can be difficult to maintain the uptime to make it worth while particularly after the nerfs to TV.

[mage21]

Using my own character and swapping in Sindragosa helm/Tier 20 pieces/full 930 mythic ToS gear, etc. etc., all manner of configurations, I was only able to get GS to sim higher for me by about 1%, and that's after decking myself out in full 930 ToS gear. Until that point, Thermal Void beat GS by a slim (slim!) margin.

If you want my opinion, Blizzard balanced the final talents (sans Comet Storm) better than I've ever seen, and due to the increased chance of human error in the arguably more complex GS rotation, I'd highly recommend staying TV.

[Grusalugg]

GS doesn't have complex rotation.

also I think GS is more forgiving during progress when you get raid mechanics, TV loses a lot more value in that situation.

[Ambereldus]

This is exactly the reason why I'm switching. I was tired of racing to try and keep up with TV only to fall short of a second FO by 10-15 seconds (pre-7.2.5) because I didn't have the right legendaries. I handle a majority of the mechanics for my raid, and TV would drop prematurely whenever I was forced to split my attention.

The GS rotation just feels better for me, and much less punishing.

As long as the two talents remain as close as they currently are, I'm hopping on this Hype Train and riding it all the way home.

[Xinder]

My only annoyance with GS is because of the IceNine trait and the delay in seeing the 2nd free icicle show up. Several occasions because of chain casting, I'm in the middle of the 5th frostbolt to get then GS, when a 5th icicle will show up from the previous frostbolt. I'm not sure how to avoid that or how to account for that so I get the most out of a GS and don't waste an icicle with a "6th" frostbolt.

[sealarp]

My 2 cents, regarding TV vs GS. I'm gonna play GS through out the progress, atleast that is what I think right now.

Even if TV in theory has the higher dps, even it sims higher, the pros with GS as I see it is:

It is less forgiving / easier rotation
Might not be correct, but it feels like you can maintain the dps outside of icy veins better. Not as CD dependent as with TV.
With some timing you can get really high priority damage with GS, on target swaps etc. Empowered eyes on Gul'Dan has been a joy with GS.

My only annoyance with GS is because of the IceNine trait and the delay in seeing the 2nd free icicle show up. Several occasions because of chain casting, I'm in the middle of the 5th frostbolt to get then GS, when a 5th icicle will show up from the previous frostbolt. I'm not sure how to avoid that or how to account for that so I get the most out of a GS and don't waste an icicle with a "6th" frostbolt.

I tried to solve this by holding a FoF (not when capped ofc) so that I can FB on 3 iceicles -> IL -> FB or GS depending on it getting double iceicle.

[itchynose]

This is exactly the reason why I'm switching. I was tired of racing to try and keep up with TV only to fall short of a second FO by 10-15 seconds (pre-7.2.5) because I didn't have the right legendaries. I handle a majority of the mechanics for my raid, and TV would drop prematurely whenever I was forced to split my attention.

The GS rotation just feels better for me, and much less punishing.

As long as the two talents remain as close as they currently are, I'm hopping on this Hype Train and riding it all the way home.

The 2.5s cast time is a real pain when dealing with random mechanics though. I guess we'll see when everyone starts getting T20 4pc. I feel like adding more orbs and IL procs, coupled with add fights (more blizzard's) will result in less FB casts and by proxy, less GS's.

[Kluian05]

Why are people claiming GS is a less forgiving / easier than TV? With the huge nerf to TV you can't even "be good" and prolong it very long anymore so it doesn't matter. As of now you can't get to a second frozen orb (maybe once 4pc T20). The buff will last around ~40-45 seconds.

Only reason I can see GS > TV is because of the splitting ice mechanic that I'm not familiar with. TV/GS builds sim very close single target, but if a 2nd target is added, is GS much better because of the free cleave with splitting ice??

[Xinder]

Why are people claiming GS is a less forgiving / easier than TV? With the huge nerf to TV you can't even "be good" and prolong it very long anymore so it doesn't matter. As of now you can't get to a second frozen orb (maybe once 4pc T20). The buff will last around ~40-45 seconds.

Only reason I can see GS > TV is because of the splitting ice mechanic that I'm not familiar with. TV/GS builds sim very close single target, but if a 2nd target is added, is GS much better because of the free cleave with splitting ice??

TV also runs SI so I'm not sure that even with a 2nd target that GS plays out as drastically better over a full fight.