Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Effinhunter]

Can I ask why you choose to sim with a 915 BTI?

Almost nobody in the game has that trinket. It would make more sense to sim with the trinket from spellblade.

As I said, I wanted to change this but needed to get the new trinkets simmed in depth. I don't necessarily trust the new trinket sims. They're almost always initially wrong. Remember Twisting Wind? It's almost laughable how wrong that ended up.

I can use the new top trinket combinations and redo everything. Not a problem. Was my plan, but I was just hoping to see if simcraft stabilized around the items. It might be 2 weeks before that happens though.

[Khrux]

I'd maybe just use stat sticks of the 2 BiS stats for each spec, it keeps the power level consistent and even if people don't have shit like 915+ stat sticks the sims are all just "max potential" dps examples anyway so it doesn't matter as long as the statistical power and suitable statistics per spec are maintained.

However I don't think the 915 BTI is a big issue, its basically BiS for all 3 hunter specs so using it for all 3 sims doesn't create misleading results or give an advantage to one spec over the other. Sure it might show all 3 specs performing higher than they could without that trinket but comparatively against each other it doesn't change anything.

[ydraw]

However I don't think the 915 BTI is a big issue, its basically BiS for all 3 hunter specs so using it for all 3 sims doesn't create misleading results or give an advantage to one spec over the other. Sure it might show all 3 specs performing higher than they could without that trinket but comparatively against each other it doesn't change anything.

It's more that you're simming something that's incredibly unlikely to exist in game. The base ilvl of BTI is 880, not many people are going to have a 915 version. At least the trinket from spellblade drops at 905 base ilvl on mythic.

[Shakou]

I'd maybe just use stat sticks of the 2 BiS stats for each spec, it keeps the power level consistent and even if people don't have shit like 915+ stat sticks the sims are all just "max potential" dps examples anyway so it doesn't matter as long as the statistical power and suitable statistics per spec are maintained.

However I don't think the 915 BTI is a big issue, its basically BiS for all 3 hunter specs so using it for all 3 sims doesn't create misleading results or give an advantage to one spec over the other. Sure it might show all 3 specs performing higher than they could without that trinket but comparatively against each other it doesn't change anything.

The important thing this addresses is that tomb trinkets mainly suck. I don't think anyone is going to be misled by this information. Although it might make more sense to use something more common, like a stat stick for sims until we really know for sure, we're all familiar with the trinket and good as it is it's not OP so much as other trinkets are just not as good.

[Effinhunter]

As you can see in the spec comparison sims, I changed the trinkets to all tomb as soon as I had the trinket sims ran. Tomb trinkets are problematic for other reasons, which I've already stated, but I'm moving away from BTI and said as much in the first BM sims of this recent batch.

Believe it or not, using stat sticks was also complained about by Azor because he whined that practically no one has a high level stat stick at the time, so I stopped using it to give the poor little guy a raiding trinket to whine about. As repeated, these are first drafts. As the trinket sims stabilize and improve in simcraft, I'll get something more reasonable in there. There will be small changes, but we'll keep moving in the right direction.

[Feyranna]

As long as whatever trinkets they are aren't being mishandled by the APL or interacting with another gear item/talent/trait I don't see where it matters. The comparisons would still be legitimate.

[Effinhunter]

As long as whatever trinkets they are aren't being mishandled by the APL or interacting with another gear item/talent/trait I don't see where it matters. The comparisons would still be legitimate.

I could try to create two separate simcraft files for each sim: 1) one with stat sticks and 2) one with tomb trinkets that are currently modeled as bis. It is more to look through, and it is more to maintain, but if that's what is needed, then it will be done.

P.S. Going to try to rerun most of the MM and BM sims with at least tomb trinkets today. Will try to have as much done as I can before most people raid tonight.

P.P.S. Do we still want to use convergence as a baseline anywhere?

[scorpor]

The important thing this addresses is that tomb trinkets mainly suck.

Say what..? Am I missing some pretty hefty nerfs?

[Effinhunter]

Currently queueing up sims for:

1.) enchants in single target, 3 target, tomb trinkets from bis list
2.) tier breakdowns for single target, tomb trinkets from bis list
3.) artifact traits/ilvl for single target, tomb trinkets from bis list
4.) legendary breakdowns, tomb trinkets from bis list

[Tycondriel]

Currently queueing up sims for:

1.) enchants in single target, 3 target, tomb trinkets from bis list
2.) tier breakdowns for single target, tomb trinkets from bis list
3.) artifact traits/ilvl for single target, tomb trinkets from bis list
4.) legendary breakdowns, tomb trinkets from bis list

I'm not providing any useful feedback here, I just wanted to say you rock, Effinhunter! This information is fantastic! Very interesting to see with 2pc4pc belt and apex become the two best leggos for everything but pure single target. Since I already have those, time to switch loot spec to MM to see if I can get lucky with their leggos!

[bazzzyl]

Guys, yesterday I have beed testing Apex and Cornered ability during normal and lfr NH.
What I noticed was that pet did not get healed by aoe heals (chain heals, druid's circle etc).
Pet was standing in green circle and recieved no healing.
This allowed him to keep up Cornered ability thorught almost all fights (until some "helpful" healer decided to target-heal the pet).
IMO this would put Apex+DF+BF to top dps builds.
Can I ask You to check it out?

[Effinhunter]

Guys, yesterday I have beed testing Apex and Cornered ability during normal and lfr NH.
What I noticed was that pet did not get healed by aoe heals (chain heals, druid's circle etc).
Pet was standing in green circle and recieved no healing.
This allowed him to keep up Cornered ability thorught almost all fights (until some "helpful" healer decided to target-heal the pet).
IMO this would put Apex+DF+BF to top dps builds.
Can I ask You to check it out?

Did you notice if he was getting affected by Wild Growth or other more direct dot based heals? I mean, this would be a ridiculously useful change, but I don't want to get my hopes up on it. From what others are saying of their own tests, Tenacity is still doing more dps than Ferocity, but the hunter module has traditionally not handled this analysis correctly in Simcraft. I'm going to poke around the Simcraft IRC and see if I can get an update.

- - - Updated - - -

All of the following should be updated with Tomb trinkets at the 900/915 ilvls, even though that's kind of weird for the lower end. Quite frankly, the 900 ilvl sims will be phased out by end of week anyway.

No more convergence trinket (which makes MM look especially good) and no more BTI (which made BM look good, especially), since that's apparently causing issues with people. As always, USE THE PROVIDED SOURCE TO TWEAK YOUR OWN GEAR IN PARTICULAR SCENARIOS. THAT'S WHY THE SOURCE IS PROVIDED. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. YOU CAN DO THIS. ASK QUESTIONS. POST YOUR OWN RESULTS. THANKS!

The enchant sims are broken right now. Something within simcraft is causing the profiles later in the simcraft source file to lose arbitrary stats, so I'm trying to figure out what might be causing the issue before I post the results.

There are a lot of sims here. It's possible that I copy/pasted the wrong image from imgur. Let me know if you spot an error that I didn't. Similarly, I've tried to upload all of the source files that I've changed and reran, but my hoster was being a pain, and it is possible that one of the files didn't upload correctly. If the trinkets are not updated to Tomb ones, that's a sign that something went wrong. Tell me about it, and I'll fix it. Thanks!

1. Legendaries Breakdown

----- BM -----

BM T20 Legendary Combos

BM tier with legendary combos, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


BM tier with legendary combos, 3 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


BM tier with legendary combos, 6 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


BM T19 Legendary Combos

BM legendaries, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


BM legendary combos, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)



----- MM -----

MM T20 Legendary Combos

MM tier with legendary combos, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


MM tier with legendary combos, 3 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


MM tier with legendary combos, 6 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


MM T19 Legendary Combos

MM legendaries, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


MM legendary combos, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV T20 Legendary Combos

SV T19 Legendary Combos

SV legendaries, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


SV legendary combos, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


############################

2. Tier Breakdown

----- BM -----

BM tier progression, 56 traits, 900/930 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


BM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- MM -----

MM tier progression, 56 traits, 900/930 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


MM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV tier progression, 56 traits, 900/930 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


SV tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


############################

3. Artifacts Breakdown

----- BM -----

BM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 56 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- MM -----

MM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 56 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 56 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


############################

[Mavick]

Any reason you're not simming Parsel's and belt together? Just for kicks I inserted that combination in your source and I got:

https://www.raidbots.com/reports/S1Tnegwmb/index.html

[Edit - I have my fight times set to 7 minutes, so probably why number differ, also, inserting that may have altered some of the templates below it, didn't have time to doublecheck]

[Effinhunter]

P.S. Reports are still that the apex ring with Tenacity is supposedly still doing ~8k more dps than a ferocity pet with apex ring. If this is true, feel free to tack on 6-10k dps. I need to verify this. Haven't used the ring in a long time (probably 7.1 during M+).

- - - Updated - - -

Any reason you're not simming Parsel's and belt together? Just for kicks I inserted that combination in your source and I got:

https://www.raidbots.com/reports/S1Tnegwmb/index.html

[Edit - I have my fight times set to 7 minutes, so probably why number differ, also, inserting that may have altered some of the templates below it, didn't have time to doublecheck]

Honestly, there is no good reason. I can add this in. I've tried to just use combos that seemed to make sense. As I get more time, I could try to populate it with a more exhaustive list, and I'll certainly add this in right now and run again.

[bazzzyl]

P.S. Reports are still that the apex ring with Tenacity is supposedly still doing ~8k more dps than a ferocity pet with apex ring. If this is true, feel free to tack on 6-10k dps. I need to verify this. Haven't used the ring in a long time (probably 7.1 during M+).

Is it because of the CHARGE?

[Effinhunter]

Is it bacause of the CHARGE?

This was originally verified, as best as currently possible without Simcraft implementing it, by Swol of AMR.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post42419244

He shows how to use different pets to test out SV dps with Hunting Companion here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...8#post42419228

We had also mathed out the charge/stomp, but getting a simulator to verify the math was pretty useful. We haven't revisited this since though, not in any way that would be considered thorough.

- - - Updated - - -

So, looking back, the belt/parsel combo was accidentally deleted from the T19 combo listing. I've actually been wearing this combo since I picked up the chest on Tuesday, so it was definitely in there at one point. I've added it to the tier with legendaries breakdown, where it's pretty competitive with the 2pc 4pc breaking options.

T20

BM tier with legendary combos, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


T19

BM legendary combos, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)



- - - Updated - - -

I believe everything should be updated in first post. Let me know if I missed something.

[cazkain]

mantle/parsels?

[Effinhunter]

mantle/parsels?

Unable to sim this right now. May not be able to until later, but I'm sure it's a reasonable combo.

Btw, the tenacity pet with apex is only going to help with charge. So, if it's a fight with no target switchnig, probably no gain except initial charge, which will not be that big of a deal. Thankfully, most of the fights in this tier have adds.

[Ettan]

For the Bm sims I noticed you used t20 gloves + t19 cloak

Wont t20 head+shoulder+chest+cloak with t19 leggs+gloves be more optimal?
Lose out on a smidge of mastery from the t19 cloak but you gain alot of haste and some crit.

And maybe test with bti + medallion

[Nubulous]

For the Bm sims I noticed you used t20 gloves + t19 cloak

Wont t20 head+shoulder+chest+cloak with t19 leggs+gloves be more optimal?
Lose out on a smidge of mastery from the t19 cloak but you gain alot of haste and some crit.

And maybe test with bti + medallion

I was looking into this myself and I think using Tier 19 cloak is because the stat allocation is so small..Going up to even a mythic tier cloak you are only gaining a few hundred agil. And the tier 19 has mastery being its overwhelmingly main stat