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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Migrant workers are not soldiers. Refugees are not soldiers. Period.
    Not anymore at least. You didnt like that point at all did you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Literally millions of illegals are in this country, and employed. That is proof in and of itself. I don't know what further proof you need, they are here, and they have jobs.
    Where is this here? Because not everywhere and everyone is the same you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Illegal immigration has proven to be very beneficial, and many cities, and even states rely heavily on illegal workforces. Social Security has only been beneficial, because the tax for it has been raised more than 20 times. The real problem are those who took far more than they put in for the last 75 years. You may think illegals are harming you, but they are mostly hard-working, diligent people. It's only a pain in the ass, because you don't like it.
    This is, again, a statement at best made from ignorance and at worst from malice.
    You seem to have no grasp of the situation here and yet you judge. Because I have the data for my country and Ive got a good graps of the situation of our imediate neighbors, which incidentaly are quite a few. The argument was never about the majority of any group, the argument is and always has been about a minority within that group that has significant impact on the actions of the majority of the group as well as influence over society as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and stick with my support of migration and open borders. I like freedom, and that's not likely to change anytime soon.
    Of course you like freedom, especially the kind of freedom that comes at the expense of others. If you really want to live in a country where you can leave your door open at night you dont live in new york city, a melting pot of cultures rife with friction. The only thing a door oppresses is home invader and burglar "culture".

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You can suggest anything you like, and I will respond in kind. No thanks, I'm going to go ahead and side with freedom on this one. I have no desire to forcefully dismantle anything, you are the one who is preaching for force. I think any culture should be able to do as it pleases, because unlike you, I'm not going to try and forcefully stop them.
    As Ive pointed out, your freedom is a freedom at the expense of others. And yes of course you are, you've been caught red handed pants down and thats not a babana in your hand. If you really think any culture should do as it pleases I really hope some cannibals come visit you sooner rather than later.
    I would rather have some cultures neatly seperated from ours by a nice and orderly controlled border, where migration happens on an individually veted level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I see authoritarianism and the desire to cause harm as bad, call me crazy.
    Please do go into detail here. Where does this fit the political definition of authoritarianism and where and to whom specifically is this causing harm? Please demonstrate that the harm is indeed caused and that the alternative soultions you propose cause less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, I do not seek to destroy your culture or your heritage, merely call you out if you feel compelled to force your culture and heritage upon others.
    Yes you do. You repeatedly stated you want my country to change into something that is in various aspects the very antithesis of itself and comes at the cost of great harm to its people. I'm not going around to cure the ills of the world by trying to turn them into copies of my own twisted self. That is some agent smith virus from the matrix level bullshit right there. Which you insist upon not on the basis of reliable data, but on the basis of sheer and utter ignorance.

    I force my heritage onto OTHERS? There is a limit to presumptive dickishness and you've passed it a long time ago. You dont get to migrate to my country, sleep in my house, eat from my table and enjoy the fruits of my labour but when I ask you to milk the cows in the morning and not shag the goats at night accuse me of forcing my culture and heritage down your throat. That is not oppression, that is not force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It is entirely possible for multiple cultures to coexist, so long as one does not attempt to force itself upon the others. If you feel you cannot coexist with other cultures, maybe they are not the real problem. You do not have to embrace other cultures if you do not wish to, but that does not mean you should try and forcefully stop them, either.
    I leave it to you to "embrace" multiculturalism and enjoy its riches. Take it all, preferably all 300 million africans that would travel to europe right this minute if given the posibility. A few loonies and NGOs aside no one in their right mind really wants that around here. We already coexist with other cultures. We've just drawn a line in the sand (sometimes literally) and decided that we fare far better and live a far more secure, productive and peacefull existence if we dont mingle.
    If you want to settle down here on the other side of that line, let us check who you are, where you come from, where you've been and what you've done. Bring the skills and the attitude to be a boon to our society. If you cant or dont want to do that, sure no problem, just go somewhere else. THAT is indeed freedom.
    Last edited by Runenwächter; 2017-06-22 at 08:36 AM.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Safol View Post
    This is so circular and reeks of bias and projection.

    Just because you are an ill disciplined goon doesn't mean you should extend that to everyone else.
    I'm plenty disciplined. I make a point to not harm others, and ensure that my actions do not lead to unnecessary effort and work of others.

  3. #363
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The Sharia part is mostly false. As someone who lives in the EU, i can tell you that no-go zones are indeed here. Its zones where the police/EMTs/mail delivery and so on get attacked when going there. Laws apply there, but its hard for the police to inforce, when they get attacked for going there. There are also reported Sharia courts in some of them.

    Also Snopes is so incredibly biased, they are only rivaled by people like Alex Jones.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    Not anymore at least. You didnt like that point at all did you?


    Where is this here? Because not everywhere and everyone is the same you know.


    This is, again, a statement at best made from ignorance and at worst from malice.
    You seem to have no grasp of the situation here and yet you judge. Because I have the data for my country and Ive got a good graps of the situation of our imediate neighbors, which incidentaly are quite a few. The argument was never about the majority of any group, the argument is and always has been about a minority within that group that has significant impact on the actions of the majority of the group as well as influence over society as a whole.


    Of course you like freedom, especially the kind of freedom that comes at the expense of others. If you really want to live in a country where you can leave your door open at night you dont live in new york city, a melting pot of cultures rife with friction. The only thing a door oppresses is home invader and burglar "culture".


    As Ive pointed out, your freedom is a freedom at the expense of others. And yes of course you are, you've been caught red handed pants down and thats not a babana in your hand. If you really think any culture should do as it pleases I really hope some cannibals come visit you sooner rather than later.
    I would rather have some cultures neatly seperated from ours by a nice and orderly controlled border, where migration happens on an individually veted level.


    Please do go into detail here. Where does this fit the political definition of authoritarianism and where and to whom specifically is this causing harm? Please demonstrate that the harm is indeed caused and that the alternative soultions you propose cause less.


    Yes you do. You repeatedly stated you want my country to change into something that is in various aspects the very antithesis of itself and comes at the cost of great harm to its people. I'm not going around to cure the ills of the world by trying to turn them into copies of my own twisted self. That is some agent smith virus from the matrix level bullshit right there. Which you insist upon not on the basis of reliable data, but on the basis of sheer and utter ignorance.

    I force my heritage onto OTHERS? There is a limit to presumptive dickishness and you've passed it a long time ago. You dont get to migrate to my country, sleep in my house, eat from my table and enjoy the fruits of my labour but when I ask you to milk the cows in the morning and not shag the goats at night accuse me of forcing my culture and heritage down your throat. That is not oppression, that is not force.


    I leave it to you to "embrace" multiculturalism and enjoy its riches. Take it all, preferably all 300 million africans that would travel to europe right this minute if given the posibility. A few loonies and NGOs aside no one in their right mind really wants that around here. We already coexist with other cultures. We've just drawn a line in the sand (sometimes literally) and decided that we fare far better and live a far more secure, productive and peacefull existence if we dont mingle.
    If you want to settle down here on the other side of that line, let us check who you are, where you come from, where you've been and what you've done. Bring the skills and the attitude to be a boon to our society. If you cant or dont want to do that, sure no problem, just go somewhere else. THAT is indeed freedom.
    In the United States, almost all illegal immigrants are hard-working people with jobs. As for them being "soldiers of fortune" that's a joke. It's simply not the case.

    If the issue is with a small percentage of a group, then punish those people, not everyone. Let the individual be responsible for his own actions. Do you wish to be punished along with your neighbor, all because you look like him, or live next to him? Screw that.

    You seem to be conveniently forgetting the one major caveat I place when I say people should be free to do what they want. They should be free to do what they want, so long as it does not harm others. Yeah, most people tend to forget that last part, because they can't really argue a case if it's included. And, since you want cultures controlled by borders, you do want to use force to keep them separated. There's only one problem, cultures cross borders all the time, because people bring part of their homes as they move.

    You want to forcefully prevent other cultures from entering your borders, I think that is clearly a definition of authoritarianism. I'm not sure how you can say it is not.

    I never sought to destroy anything, other than oppression. If you are upset that I do not support you forcing your culture onto others, you are correct. I do not support the destruction of your culture, unless your culture is one of oppression and harm. By wanting to only have one culture within your borders, you are very much trying to force your culture upon others. You clearly want the government to enforce such things, and that is what government is... force.

    As for your last paragraph. It's clear you think state sovereignty is more important than individual freedom. I'll take personal freedom any day of the week.

  5. #365
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nah, I'll go ahead and side with freedom on this one.
    Simple question, are borders real or not?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The majority of migrants are employable
    No, they aren't.
    and they get jobs
    They don't.
    They work menial jobs for low pay,
    These largely do not exist in western Europe.
    The solution is simple, get rid of the welfare state
    Ah, yes we could do that.
    For some strange reason we in Europe don't want to reconstruct our societies to the core.
    Weird.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Simple question, are borders real or not?

    - - - Updated - - -


    No, they aren't.

    They don't.
    These largely do not exist in western Europe.

    Ah, yes we could do that.
    For some strange reason we in Europe don't want to reconstruct our societies to the core.
    Weird.
    Well, they are real in the fact that we create them.

    Let the market determine who is needed, and who is not. Stop giving them welfare, and let them survive on their own. If they cannot, then you have your answer.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Well, they are real in the fact that we create them.

    Let the market determine who is needed, and who is not. Stop giving them welfare, and let them survive on their own. If they cannot, then you have your answer.
    They would turn to violent crime and looting. Few people welcome their horrific end with honor. I tend to call the people who don't human.

  8. #368
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Let the market determine who is needed, and who is not. Stop giving them welfare, and let them survive on their own. If they cannot, then you have your answer.
    You do know absent welfare we would have 100 000s of people living in shantytowns?
    in practice it would amount to a mass deportation program.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    They would turn to violent crime and looting. Few people welcome their horrific end with honor. I tend to call the people who don't human.
    Poor people are more likely to commit crimes, we see it all the time. The sooner you get people off of welfare, the sooner they will be forced to provide for themselves. As for the outliers who wish to harm others, deal with them accordingly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    You do know absent welfare we would have 100 000s of people living in shantytowns?
    in practice it would amount to a mass deportation program.
    If people cannot survive on their own in a country, they should not try and go there. Stop paying for them.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeht View Post
    NOPE. It would be more right to help them where they are, it would cost less, and it wouldn't put as much stress on EU countries economy. But by all means if you are from other continent please help refugees and take them to your home
    That's just bloody retarded. "It's best we just help them right where they stay... in a civl war torn country where hundreds of thousands are being brutalized and killed. Yeah just keep them over there."

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    That's just bloody retarded. "It's best we just help them right where they stay... in a civl war torn country where hundreds of thousands are being brutalized and killed. Yeah just keep them over there."
    Well video want you to donate for foundation which helps people in their 'war torn country'. Would you agree then with it? Or now you will bash video, since it is better to get all of them here? How about you would donate so they could bring some of those refugees to New Jersey?

    oh btw. people that needed help the most stay in those countries because they cannot just walk 800+ miles, but you wouldn't help them because it is war torn country? Besides all this argument about bringing them here is useless - because it will not help them in long run, and guess what - most of them want to come back to their country as soon as possible, which will never be possible if they do not get help THERE!
    Last edited by Alexeht; 2017-06-22 at 11:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    That's just bloody retarded. "It's best we just help them right where they stay... in a civl war torn country where hundreds of thousands are being brutalized and killed. Yeah just keep them over there."
    I like to believe i'd have the resolve to fight for my country if such a thing should occur. I know it's more multifaceted than that however a large number of these refugee's. primarily from Africa, are economic migrants. It isn't just Syrian's fleeing a war-torn country.

    The idea of 'help them where they are' includes the support of refugee camps in the region, preventing the displacement of millions of people across continents. When you dump 2million+ people in to a continent with a language barrier; assimilation, poverty and clashing cultural differences are going to be a problem.

    I wouldn't mind it so much but here in the UK I genuinely don't think a single migrant should enter the country. I don't hate them for being different, but we can't afford them. NHS? Failing. School systems? Slashed. Public services? Gouged and sometimes put to 0, libraries having to be community owned or shut down. Hell, we couldn't even find housing for people involved in the Grenfell Tower fire, where the fuck would we put thousands of people.

  13. #373
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If people cannot survive on their own in a country, they should not try and go there. Stop paying for them.
    What you think shantytowns are incompatible with your libertarian utopia?

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    What you think shantytowns are incompatible with your libertarian utopia?
    Personally, I'm fine with shantytowns, if that's how people choose to live.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyorkbourne View Post
    I wouldn't mind it so much but here in the UK I genuinely don't think a single migrant should enter the country. I don't hate them for being different, but we can't afford them. NHS? Failing. School systems? Slashed. Public services? Gouged and sometimes put to 0, libraries having to be community owned or shut down. Hell, we couldn't even find housing for people involved in the Grenfell Tower fire, where the fuck would we put thousands of people.
    UK is already paying benefits to extremists violence preachers with black flags, while regular brits have to work hard. Like this one here from 2011 [update: I know this particular one didn't had black flag, but there are many videos about it how they use ISIS flags and coppers do not do ANYTHING, same with Hezbollah flags)
    So yeah UK do not need more people, they need to stop paying benefits to people that hate this country for not bending every time they whine.
    Last edited by Alexeht; 2017-06-22 at 11:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    YOu seem to think that propaganda has a negative intonation when it doesn't. Lots of things are propaganda in our daily lives, especially when it's political. Calling it propaganda has no meaning, because it's just pointing out the obvious.

    Propaganda
    "information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc."
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/propaganda?s=t


    So yes, it is propaganda. And?
    The issue is that it is propaganda that is meant to deceive people into thinking helping refugees means you're helping young children and females most of the time, and they are usually from war torn countries when the reality is from what we've seen it's a lot more of helping grown men, who are perfectly capable of handling themselves that then go on to pretend they are teenagers, and from time to time women and kids who are often not from war torn areas. Essentially the video was created to dupe people into believing a certain agenda without a lot of honesty involved.

  17. #377
    This is actually kind of fucked up, that Nilotic (East African) girl in Uganda seems to have been from South Sudan where there is an ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Nuer people by Dinka militias.

    People saying that refugees are just economic migrants are extremely ignorant of refugees. Granted there are those who try to receive refugee status despite not being refugees and abuse it for economic gain, but that doesn't negate the existence of legitimate refugees.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Atethecat View Post
    This is actually kind of fucked up, that Nilotic (East African) girl in Uganda seems to have been from South Sudan where there is an ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Nuer people by Dinka militias.

    People saying that refugees are just economic migrants are extremely ignorant of refugees. Granted there are those who try to receive refugee status despite not being refugees and abuse it for economic gain, but that doesn't negate the existence of legitimate refugees.
    Nah it's not ignorance when we've spent the last year plus seeing how they react once they get to the 'promised land' of Western Europe. "Legitimate" refugees is a misnomer, partly due to destabilization of those regions by the West themselves but also because they're not looking to ever return to their native land. They want the infinite meal ticket that the generous programs in Europe provide, and that completely negates any sob story they can conjure up.
    The Fresh Prince of Baudelaire

    Banned at least 10 times. Don't give a fuck, going to keep saying what I want how I want to.

    Eat meat. Drink water. Do cardio and burpees. The good life.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Atethecat View Post
    This is actually kind of fucked up, that Nilotic (East African) girl in Uganda seems to have been from South Sudan where there is an ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Nuer people by Dinka militias.

    People saying that refugees are just economic migrants are extremely ignorant of refugees. Granted there are those who try to receive refugee status despite not being refugees and abuse it for economic gain, but that doesn't negate the existence of legitimate refugees.
    Well I do not negate existence of 'real refugees', but I hate this mind bending 'ad', where they show 3 girls and 1 old man, while reality is different. What is weird I would be in favor of feminist (yuck!) foundation which would help only women refugees (especially if they would separate them from extremists crowd).
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Damajin View Post
    Nah it's not ignorance when we've spent the last year plus seeing how they react once they get to the 'promised land' of Western Europe. "Legitimate" refugees is a misnomer, partly due to destabilization of those regions by the West themselves but also because they're not looking to ever return to their native land. They want the infinite meal ticket that the generous programs in Europe provide, and that completely negates any sob story they can conjure up.
    Again you're conflating economic migrants with refugees. Secondly not every legitimate refugee is going to Europe, in fact talking Syrian refugees alone, a majority (~1,000,000) have fled to neighboring countries (Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey).

    I must also reiterate that Syrians aren't the only refugees. Nuer refugees in South Sudan (who have largely made their way to neighboring countries or managed to gain asylum in the US) are fleeing genocide.

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