If there is only one burning legion across all universes...

[DeicideUH]

I'm of the impression that the Warcraft multiverse isn't one of those "all outcomes that could occur do occur in an infinity of alternative continuities." I'm thinking it's a sliding scale of continuities that create just a handful of stable universes where things are just a little difference from the primary continuity (e.g. the "one timeline" that the Bronze dragons were appointed to protect and cultivate). The other universes are unrealized realities - fragmented and patchwork, they likely exist only briefly before dissolving into nothingness. Kairoz and co. seized on one of the few universes where it was stable enough to be realized and made it a concrete instance that could be accessed and used for his own ends - one where the changes were minor enough to be stabilized.

This explanation almost works, but even if only universes with minor changes can keep existing, then we would still have a potential for infinite universes. They'd just not stray far from the main one.

As for how transcendent demons in the Nether function it can go one of two ways. Either on attaining true demonic status a mortal from a given universe is translated over to the Nether and his or her memories merge with their already demonic self, or the mortal in question is simply annihilated utterly as their "spot" is already occupied by a given demon (e.g. the case of Othaar/Socrethar in this case). Another possibility is that this merge is also universally transcendent, and that once a given mortal in a given universe becomes a demon then *all* their copies in alternate universes simultaneously do as well regardless of their current status.

But then, when someone is corrupted in a given universe, he would just disappear from that reality, since "he" already exists in the Nether. Unless a single demon can be in infinite universes at the same time. Which only makes things even more confusing.

The whole way this makes sense is if the Legion only formed in our reality, and not any others. Which would likely mean that the Pantheon only existed in our reality (possible since Aman'Thul had power over time and the various time ways).

It gets too messy with infinite Eredar, infinite Titans, some being good some being evil...

But, if the titans only existed in our reality, then how could alternate Draenor (which was partially ordered by a Titan) exist almost identical to our Draenor? Without Agrammar, there would be no Grond, no colossals, no gronn, no ogron, no ogres and no orcs. Draenor would be entirely consumed by the Evergrowth.

[frogger237]

The Twisting Nether is like the glue between realities and demons pretty much become a part of it which is why they can only die there or in heavily fel infused areas.

It might kinda be like the film The One where the energy/power/life force of a person has is split among all versions of themselves and so when you're the only one left standing you pretty much become god like. Maybe Archimonde had to go around killing all his alternate selves to gain the power he has. Or maybe you "fuse" with your demon self when you become a demon, so there are still copies of you that are still normal.

[Deleted]

That's what it sounded like to me too, like he thought they meant "are there more titans than the pantheon" not "are there doubles of the titans"

Yeah, and if Sargeras is one and only, and also the Burning Legion we know is one and only (because demons can trascend cosmos), it makes sense that Sargeras is ONLY focusing on us instead of looking on other cosmos, and for good reasons:

1) The BL is a massive army, but one and only, so it's difficult to check all cosmos (we don't know if they are infinite);
2) Sargeras cares only about our cosmo, since he can't trascend into others, so it will be pointless to "save" other cosmos;
3) We don't actually know if all cosmos can be infected by the "void" (or if Void gods/lord can trascend or they are multiple and so on) and even if they can, we don't know if they infected all cosmos;
4) Even if Sargeras cares about other cosmos, is hard to engage invasion in a cosmo you can't actually step on (maybe his avatars? but still less powerful);

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Still there must be more than one set of titans, due to Azeroth alone, without the well of eternity no elves and the well is created through titan blood. So any alternate reality with a well means an additional azeroth. And why should there only be one set of titans even though they are creations of the physical universe, they are neither bound to the light, the void or the twisting nether.

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Anyone can enter any universe at any point if you know how, due to the twisting nether everything is connected, Kairoz more or less did the same as he tied another reality to Azeroth through the nether, while he time travelled.

Ok, but my points still stands, we know little about the Void and his heralds, and it wuold be very very impractical (and useless) to start again searching for a newborn Titan, when you have one at the tip of your fingers.

[StationaryHawk]

Cause, the key only links to legion worlds...

They also didn't have a clear link to Azeroth back in the day....

So....ehhhhhhhhhhhhh............

So you're saying the key can only link one Legion world to another?

[Aucald]

This explanation almost works, but even if only universes with minor changes can keep existing, then we would still have a potential for infinite universes. They'd just not stray far from the main one.

I'm thinking the definition of "minor" is definitely rarefied in this case. A handful of continuities might exist that are close enough to the primary continuity to be stabilized into concrete realness (or achieve that on their own in some manner). The rest of them are all varying degrees of unstable. A continuity where, for example, the Old Gods have corrupted Azeroth into a Dark Titan would be so unstable it would dissolve into nothingness very quickly (relatively speaking). But a continuity where a single major NPC might have not been born, or might have died before their time, might be able to be stabilized or achieve stability on its own. The rest of the infinite universes are all unstable - and as such, meaningless to both the Titans and the Legion.

But then, when someone is corrupted in a given universe, he would just disappear from that reality, since "he" already exists in the Nether. Unless a single demon can be in infinite universes at the same time. Which only makes things even more confusing.

I tend to cleave to the idea that any one instance of a being becoming a demon effectively sets the destiny for the rest of his alternative counterparts. Either they are destroyed in that instance across all continuities - or they all merge into a composite demonic being in that instance.

[DeicideUH]

The Twisting Nether is like the glue between realities and demons pretty much become a part of it which is why they can only die there or in heavily fel infused areas.

It might kinda be like the film The One where the energy/power/life force of a person has is split among all versions of themselves and so when you're the only one left standing you pretty much become god like. Maybe Archimonde had to go around killing all his alternate selves to gain the power he has. Or maybe you "fuse" with your demon self when you become a demon, so there are still copies of you that are still normal.

This almost works as well, but the bad thing about it is that, once you become a demon, you cease to exist in a particular universe. So, if you were corrupted in, say, five universes, you now are one demon that must repeat his actions 5 times (Kil'jaeden corrupting infinite Gul'dans scenario). Why repeat your actions then? You would try a different approach and test several scenarios in different universes, not repeat yourself.



IMO, one way to explain WoD is: that "universe" was not a full universe at all, but a limited pocket dimension that came into being when Kairoz traveled to it. I.E.: he took a snapshot of the cosmos (or just a part of the cosmos, maybe just the Draenor star system) and copy/pasted it, duplicating things in a limited way (two Gul'dans, but not two Azeroths, two Legions, and so on). But even that explanation falls apart when you consider the finer details: the demons on Draenor would duplicate as well; there would be no differences in the past prior to Kairoz's meddling (i.e.: Rulkan would be dead in alt!Draenor), and so on.

[Combatbutler]

Ok, but my points still stands, we know little about the Void and his heralds, and it wuold be very very impractical (and useless) to start again searching for a newborn Titan, when you have one at the tip of your fingers.

The void lords didn't know the locations of the word souls to begin with, which is why they blindly hurled old gods into the physical universes in the hopes that one of them actually finds one to begin with.

[DeicideUH]

I'm thinking the definition of "minor" is definitely rarefied in this case. A handful of continuities might exist that are close enough to the primary continuity to be stabilized into concrete realness (or achieve that on their own in some manner). The rest of them are all varying degrees of unstable. A continuity where, for example, the Old Gods have corrupted Azeroth into a Dark Titan would be so unstable it would dissolve into nothingness very quickly (relatively speaking). But a continuity where a single major NPC might have not been born, or might have died before their time, might be able to be stabilized or achieve stability on its own. The rest of the infinite universes are all unstable - and as such, meaningless to both the Titans and the Legion.

What I meant is that even minor changes can result in infinite universes. Like: one universe in which Jaina dies in Stratholme; another in which she goes to Northrend with Arthas; and so on. You can have infinite minor changes in differente timelines.

And, thinking about it now, even minor changes can produce grater differences down the road. So, universal stability would eventually decrease and that timeline would disappear as the resulting effects keep acumulating.

I tend to cleave to the idea that any one instance of a being becoming a demon effectively sets the destiny for the rest of his alternative counterparts. Either they are destroyed in that instance across all continuities - or they all merge into a composite demonic being in that instance.

But then, for instance, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde would just disappear, and Alt!Velen, instead of having to run from Argus, would just be really confused about what happened to his friends.

All these ideas are nice in theory, but when they do not fit within the empirical alternate universe of WoD that we got.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah, and if Sargeras is one and only, and also the Burning Legion we know is one and only (because demons can trascend cosmos), it makes sense that Sargeras is ONLY focusing on us instead of looking on other cosmos, and for good reasons:
1) The BL is a massive army, but one and only, so it's difficult to check all cosmos (we don't know if they are infinite);

The burning legion operates in different universes, WoD is proof of that, each universe that contains dreanei or has a thundered azeroth had contact with the legion, because it is the very reason for their existence.

2) Sargeras cares only about our cosmo, since he can't trascend into others, so it will be pointless to "save" other cosmos;

Sargeras is leading a multi dimensional assault, we get a glimpse of it in the novel illidan.

3) We don't actually know if all cosmos can be infected by the "void" (or if Void gods/lord can trascend or they are multiple and so on) and even if they can, we don't know if they infected all cosmos;

Every universe that contains humans must have old gods, since they are a creation of the curse of flesh

4) Even if Sargeras cares about other cosmos, is hard to engage invasion in a cosmo you can't actually step on (maybe his avatars? but still less powerful);

But he still does it, there is plenty of evidence for that. Wod for example, the illidan novel, twilight of the aspects etc.

[Utigarde]

Just ignore the multiverse in WoW, it's not worth beating your head into.

[DeicideUH]

Just ignore the multiverse in WoW, it's not worth beating your head into.

That's my point.

[Aucald]

What I meant is that even minor changes can result in infinite universes. Like: one universe in which Jaina dies in Stratholme; another in which she goes to Northrend with Arthas; and so on. You can have infinite minor changes in differente timelines.

And, thinking about it now, even minor changes can produce grater differences down the road. So, universal stability would eventually decrease and that timeline would disappear as the resulting effects keep acumulating.

In this model an alternate continuity is sparked by a given change, but subsequent changes from that don't generate new instances of the continuity (or if they are then they are so unstable as to be insignificant). The change acting as the prime mover is the genesis-point which makes the continuity an alternative one - its changes constitute what are actually different about the universe in question.

But then, for instance, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde would just disappear, and Alt!Velen, instead of having to run from Argus, would just be really confused about what happened to his friends.

All these ideas are nice in theory, but when they do not fit within the empirical alternate universe of WoD that we got.

The demonic versions of Kil'jaeden and Archimonde would still exist, though; and they would still be the antagonists in this scenario (although why they'd care about an alternate Velen is another question).

But no, all these models can't really account for the multiverse explicated by WoD because that multiverse is kind of broken at the foundation level. The story and continuity devs have mixed and matched alternate universe and time travel conventions that are mutually exclusive, compounded by the issues with the demons and the Legion and their relationship to the transcendent dimension of the Twisting Nether. It could be made functional, but it would require a couple serious retcons one way or the other.

[DeicideUH]

In this model an alternate continuity is sparked by a given change, but subsequent changes from that don't generate new instances of the continuity (or if they are then they are so unstable as to be insignificant). The change acting as the prime mover is the genesis-point which makes the continuity an alternative one - its changes constitute what are actually different about the universe in question.

I kinda like the idea that a given universe only exists while it does not stray far from the original one. In that case, WoD's Draenor appeared at some point and had not accumulated enough changes so it could keep existing, but it would eventually disappear into nothingness (and then we could forget WoD ever existed).

This could also explain the Infinite Dragonflight's attempt to change the main storyline. Changing the prime universe wouldn't result into eventual oblivion, while alternate timelines eventually become unstable and disappear.

But no, all these models can't really account for the multiverse explicated by WoD because that multiverse is kind of broken at the foundation level. The story and continuity devs have mixed and matched alternate universe and time travel conventions that are mutually exclusive, compounded by the issues with the demons and the Legion and their relationship to the transcendent dimension of the Twisting Nether. It could be made functional, but it would require a couple serious retcons one way or the other.

Fully agree.

My opinion is that Blizzard changed its mind mid-story. There was suposed to be an alternate Legion, but once they realized how messy it would be, they decided to backpedal, and ended up messing things anyway.

[WintersLegion]

the thing about sargeras, our reality is probably the base reality. ours is probably the only one with the titans and world-souls, they probably transcend reality too.

it makes sense that kil'jaedan would try to kill velen in any reality he could find him, since he loved him so much before the legion. fel warps love into obsession and envy, it fueled him to want to kill velen wherever he could be found.

Yeah I can't find it again but I remember reading something that for the most part our reality is really the only one that matters if it falls all others will as well. The only reason the one in WoD was important was because it got connected to ours through the Dark Portal.

[Deleted]

The burning legion operates in different universes, WoD is proof of that, each universe that contains dreanei or has a thundered azeroth had contact with the legion, because it is the very reason for their existence.

Sargeras is leading a multi dimensional assault, we get a glimpse of it in the novel illidan.

Every universe that contains humans must have old gods, since they are a creation of the curse of flesh

But he still does it, there is plenty of evidence for that. Wod for example, the illidan novel, twilight of the aspects etc.

Ok all fair, but my point is that it's logical that Sargeras (even if he can do or is doing all of what you mentioned) is focusing his effort on us at moment (or ages, since time is kinda relative for immortals).

Another big question is: now that Kil and Archi are dead, who is left as high commanders of the Legion (excepet Sarg and random pit lord/nathzerim)?

[TheFirstOnes]

So you're saying the key can only link one Legion world to another?

Yes....


Unless you're Illidan...

[DeicideUH]

Another big question is: now that Kil and Archi are dead, who is left as high commanders of the Legion (excepet Sarg and random pit lord/nathzerim)?

No one, I'd say. The Legion is in disarray. The many commanders are probably butting heads right now.

Maybe it's time for Jaraxus, Eredar Lord of the Burning Legion, to rise!

[Combatbutler]

Ok all fair, but my point is that it's logical that Sargeras (even if he can do or is doing all of what you mentioned) is focusing his effort on us at moment (or ages, since time is kinda relative for immortals).

As deicideuh mentioned the entire multiverse as blizzard introduced it is one giant mess, with no clear solution without a heavy handed retcon, lorewise the legion assaults several universes more or less at the same time, which should be impossible, because they only exist once and can only be in one place, meaning if they focus too much on a single azeroth, others have time to breathe and become much stronger, possibly to a point in which the titan itself wakes up uncorrupted, which is basically game over, since she is far more powerful than the legion, or in one universe she becomes a dark titan etc.

Another big question is: now that Kil and Archi are dead, who is left as high commanders of the Legion (excepet Sarg and random pit lord/nathzerim)?

As far as we know the command structure should be in shambles and the legion is most likely starting to fight among themselves at the moment.

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Yes....


Unless you're Illidan...

Considering what king of colossal bastard he is,Illidan most likely added Azeroth to the net himself once he was alive again and the Illidari gave him his little trinket.

[Shkar]

While I'm sure that someone will know of some quote that pokes a hole in my view which makes it not feel like a headache, It does seem to fit regardless and is simple.

There aren't infinite universes. There's only one. Different "timelines" can be made using the power of Aman'thul (We haven't seen any others), but they are more of splinters or branches than true timelines. They aren't an entire universe, so much as they are individual worlds. As such, it does not come with a new Twisting Nether: No new demons. Alternate Draenor was not a whole alternate universe: just Draenor. Since the titans are too big/strong/dead to be part of the world being "made", no new titans (barring perhaps Azeroth's world soul).

If the different timelines are, indeed, created, than it would also explain why these changes are only planet sized as opposed to creating a multiverse: They are made using mere fractions of Aman'thul's power.

[SupBrah]

Activision-Blizzard stopped caring about the lore a long, long time ago. Their primary concern nowadays is making sure they have nice stats to show the board at the next quarterly investors meeting. As someone who's all too familiar with how corporate companies like this operate, I'll give you the most likely truth about the explanation of the Burning Legion and the alternate universes of WoW...

They were bleeding subs from MoP then WoD so much that investors were getting antsy, so they decided to smash the "Break Glass in Case of emergency" panel and brought back the Burning Legion in large.

The problems was... Why would AU Legion give a shit about our Azeroth? Our titan isn't a threat to them. How would they get there without using the same methods as Garrosh? Why wouldn't they just go and destroy AU Azeroth as it'd be way easier and AU Azeroth is actually a threat?


Thus, the expert team of writers at Activision-Blizzard, who were almost surely getting hammered by management (who were surely getting hammered by their supervisors all the way up to the suits in the executive suite) just said "Fuck it, tell them the Twisting Nether doesn't have an alternate universe."