Gold standard nostalgics - here's a great article

[Celista]

No one who actually understands finance/economics advocates for a return to the gold standard.

I still use the Roman denarius silver standard, so meh.

Hipster.

[Deleted]

The FEDeral reserve

The trend started before the federal reserve. Also you were still at what, 40 % value in gold?

[frogger237]

Okay, call me ignorant. Can you cite one example of this process?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation

[Endus]

Okay, call me ignorant. Can you cite one example of this process?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation

You want specific examples?

A lot of the Netherlands.
Parts of New Orleans.
Any number of artificial islands that have been created.

This stuff in some cases dates back centuries.

Didn't you previous claim that was the ideal situation? A situation that you acknowledge results in bubble economies.

No, bubble economies crop up due to instability and market overreaction.

The reason the term is relatively unique to a stable, controlled economy is because uncontrolled economies go through boom-bust cycles that are significantly more severe than these "bubbles".

[Louisa Bannon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation

Yeah, that's not exactly going to shatter the world real estate economy. Not saying it can't happen, but land is destroyed too: erosion, water rising, pollution, etc.

And your earlier example of a fiat currency's utility as...wait for it...a means of exchange is pure bullshit too. I mean, so is Monopoly money. Trade me your house for some Monopoly money will you? Doubtful...

A "means of exchange" is nice and all, trading goods and services. But real property is forever, at least on a human time scale.

Over the longer term, real property is the only meaningful investment.

[Endus]

Yeah, that's not exactly going to shatter the world real estate economy. Not saying it can't happen, but land is destroyed too: erosion, water rising, pollution, etc.

You argued that it couldn't. Because it had "intrinsic value" that could not be lost.

So thanks, I guess, for admitting that your earlier claims were wrong.

And your earlier example of a fiat currency's utility as...wait for it...a means of exchange is pure bullshit too. I mean, so is Monopoly money. Trade me your house for some Monopoly money will you? Doubtful...

Because there's no nation backing "Monopoly money" and guaranteeing its value, as is required for a fiat currency. That's the only functional difference between Monopoly money and, say, the American dollar, so ignoring that critical point is a bit silly.

A "means of exchange" is nice and all, trading goods and services. But real property is forever, at least on a human time scale.

I'll point you to earlier in this very post where you directly contradicted this statement, yourself. Could you please stop making claims that not even you actually believe to be true?

[Louisa Bannon]

@ Endus:

Dude, you are engaging in really high level wankery in this thread. You are making claims that while not necessarily logically fallacious are substantively meaningless. And yet you seem obsessed with the mote in my eye while a beam sticks out of your own.

Countries come and go. Money can come and go. You can stamp your feet and argue for baloney money all you like and we all see right through you.

Real property is very stable and has utility. Not some imaginary beautiful object utility but actual utility as in farmland, housing, etc. Sure, I guess on both sides we've shown that land can be created and possibly even destroyed - perhaps more so on a geologic scale. So what? That slight level of malleability hardly diminishes its actual intrinsic value. And I never claimed it was "immortal", do not put words into my argument. But if it did not have the value I claim, how is it one of the most fundamental types of investments? Banks aren't into real property? Is that your claim?

If banks make other types of investments it is because they are specifically enabled to make huge databased gains from doing so. If you or I did the same things, we'd be racketeering or loan-sharking or some other invented crime that's okay for the masters of the universe but not okay for you nor I. My point is that it is precisely a fiat currency that allows that kind of corruption. A currency scheme that is backed by literally nothing except "we say so" is the worst kind of baloney money.

Gold, not unlike real property, is also very stable and has value. Not the "because we say so" value you seem to champion, intrinsic.

Every person of means invests in commodities, real property, etc. It's absolutely part of a long-view portfolio. Other types of investments can be risked for a quick turnover if an opportunity arises. Even sketchier investments are available if you are a master of the universe type, specifically allowed to do things that would be a crime for anyone else.

We can agree to disagree here, but I don't really see that you've made any of the points you seem to imagine you have.

- - - Updated - - -

No, bubble economies crop up due to instability and market overreaction.

Caused by what? Derp...

Oh no, my baloney money scheme is susceptible to corruption and greed.

[Endus]

Countries come and go. Money can come and go. You can stamp your feet and argue for baloney money all you like and we all see right through you.

Real property is very stable and has utility. Not some imaginary beautiful object utility but actual utility as in farmland, housing, etc.

Not all land.
Not to all people.

Because value and utility are both subjective concepts, not objective ones. You're claiming that the value to land is intrinsic, which is fantastical nonsense, and you've even contradicted yourself on that claim several times.

But if it did not have the value I claim, how is it one of the most fundamental types of investments? Banks aren't into real property? Is that your claim?

Because it has value in the same way that other things, including money, have value. You're claiming there's a distinct difference, and you've both failed to support that and at times, contradicted that.

Or are you claiming that banks don't care about money, or investments, or other such things? I never claimed real estate had no value, just that value itself is subjective, and thus not practically different between real estate and other things, such as a fiat currency.

Gold, not unlike real property, is also very stable and has value. Not the "because we say so" value you seem to champion, intrinsic.

It's absolutely "because you say so" value. Gold's historical value largely stems from the facts that 1> it's pretty, 2> it's easy to smelt and work, and 3> it's relatively rare. If it weren't pretty, we'd value it as we do copper. If it were hard to smelt or work, we'd value it like titanium; it may be valuable today, but it wasn't, historically. If it weren't rare, we wouldn't value it much at all, because it would be readily available, we'd value it like iron.

It's entirely subjective.

Also, gold, stable? That's a laugh. The value of gold is VERY prone to booms and busts.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_2012.svg.png

Caused by what? Derp...

Oh no, my baloney money scheme is susceptible to corruption and greed.

Caused by investors being stupid. It has nothing to do with fiat currency.

[Louisa Bannon]

We can agree to disagree. I think you're utterly full of crap on this topic though.

FWIW:

my baloney money scheme is susceptible to corruption and greed = investors being stupid

It has everything to do with a currency and an entire economic system that plays three card money and hide the salami with who gets stuck looking for a seat when the music ends.

[Deleted]

A small, controlled rate of inflation favors investment and continued economic action, because sticking your money in a vault will always result in a slow decay in its value. This is a good thing for an economy.

A small, controlled rate of inflation obviously equally favors high-risk alternatives to hoarding, which in turn lead to dot.com bubbles, housing bubbles and whatever other mis-allocations. Tying your currency to a random ore is reasonably dumb, but the shit Helicopter Ben and his disciples have been unleashing on the world economy in the last 15 years is probably magnitudes worse.

- - - Updated - - -

Gold, not unlike real property, is also very stable and has value. Not the "because we say so" value you seem to champion, intrinsic.

Gold is a crazy convention that somehow survived for 4000 years. It has virtually no intrinsic value.

[Ivanstone]

Gold, not unlike real property, is also very stable and has value. Not the "because we say so" value you seem to champion, intrinsic.

We could say the same about diamonds. Historically they're valuable because they're pretty, it has useful industrial properties and they're fairly rare.

Except that they're not actually all that rare, are easy to manufacture and their gem value is only maintained because corporations and governments say they're valuable.

[Celista]

Real property is very stable and has utility. Not some imaginary beautiful object utility but actual utility as in farmland, housing, etc.

Gold is a very volatile commodity and that is for several reasons. Some investors unwisely flock to it during economic recessions (occasionally it might make sense to invest in gold during such periods, but not usually). Most of gold's utility is in luxury items. You can't eat it, you can't build shelter with it and it doesn't keep you warm at night.

You can trade in its value for actual currency, but we no longer have a gold standard economy. There is no need for prolonged discussion as to why we no longer have that standard, long drawn out discussions aren't necessary. All you need to know is:

1. We tried propping up the gold standard in the 60s, and it did not work (if you are that curious about why that is, you can look it up).
2. There is not enough gold in the entire world for the US to revert back to the gold standard, let alone countries that are pegged to the US dollar.
3. People hoard gold during economic downturns, which deepens economic recessions/depressions under the gold standard, and makes our economy more volatile.

That is all. The gold standard is a weird circle jerk pipe dream from people who do not understand economics. If we had been under a gold standard during our most recent recession, we would have most certainly ended up in an economic depression.

[Louisa Bannon]

Gold is a very volatile commodity and that is for several reasons.

Everything you were about to say is because you are valuing gold by means of fiat currency. It is the amount of currency to purchase a sum amount of gold that flactuates, yes?

If we had been under a gold standard during our most recent recession, we would have most certainly ended up in an economic depression.

I'd argue that a more completely transparent economic system, coupled with meaningful and necessarily regulation would make our last three economic crises impossible.

[Taso]

https://fee.org/articles/why-experts...tandard-wrong/

Finally someone else who uses FEE. (:

[Phookah]

Hey look, it's the gold standard argument that shows the people making it don't understand how money works.

Yawn, next.

[Louisa Bannon]

Hey look, it's the gold standard argument that shows the people making it don't understand how money works.

Lame. I get how it works fine.

Fiat currency is merely an ideal monetary system for thieves and their enablers.

Theoretically, I oppose paper money and support the monetary system described in the U.S. Constitution. We are so far away from anything close to that we are all blowing smoke. Why are we so far from a constitutional monetary system? Because the 1% don't like it of course.

[Deleted]

We could say the same about diamonds. Historically they're valuable because they're pretty, it has useful industrial properties and they're fairly rare.

Except that they're not actually all that rare, are easy to manufacture and their gem value is only maintained because corporations and governments say they're valuable.

Industrial diamonds are amazing.

[Taso]

Gold is a very volatile commodity and that is for several reasons. Some investors unwisely flock to it during economic recessions (occasionally it might make sense to invest in gold during such periods, but not usually). Most of gold's utility is in luxury items. You can't eat it, you can't build shelter with it and it doesn't keep you warm at night.

You can trade in its value for actual currency, but we no longer have a gold standard economy. There is no need for prolonged discussion as to why we no longer have that standard, long drawn out discussions aren't necessary. All you need to know is:

1. We tried propping up the gold standard in the 60s, and it did not work (if you are that curious about why that is, you can look it up).
2. There is not enough gold in the entire world for the US to revert back to the gold standard, let alone countries that are pegged to the US dollar.
3. People hoard gold during economic downturns, which deepens economic recessions/depressions under the gold standard, and makes our economy more volatile.

That is all. The gold standard is a weird circle jerk pipe dream from people who do not understand economics. If we had been under a gold standard during our most recent recession, we would have most certainly ended up in an economic depression.

What do you mean its for people who dont understand economics? We had it until Nixon took us off Bretton wood in the 70s which was sinking as more countries found they fared better leaving the system because of inflation. Prior to that Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson had no issue with the gold standard and we did really well except for some nasty recessions that occurred such as the 1958 1960-61, 1969.
Secondly recessions and depressions are inevitable. Nothing can stop them. Trust me when I say that when I took European history 1400-1914 I was quite shocked to see depressions/recessions as far back as the medieval era. So even a continued policy like we have now does not guarantee a safety for the future and someone will come up with a new monetary system to fix the flaws of the current system.

[Masark]

Also, gold, stable? That's a laugh. The value of gold is VERY prone to booms and busts.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_2012.svg.png

Don't you see? Gold is totally stable and unmoving. It's the fiat currency that is booming and busting around it!

/s