Why I think Europeans can't understand conservative US views

[lordsphinx]

I’ve been reading these forums for years now, and a recent post by Skroe made a light bulb go off in my head about why the European crowd here can’t understand US policy. What the non-US posters don’t understand is that the United States is not one huge, homogenous swath of land. We are divided into 50 states, 3,144 counties, and 36,011 municipalities. The US constitution defines the role, responsibility, and limitations of the Federal Government as follows:

1) Defense, war prosecution, peace, foreign relations, foreign commerce, and interstate commerce;
2) The protection of citizens’ constitutional rights (e.g the Bill of Rights) and ensuring that slavery remains illegal;
3) Establishing federal courts inferior to the SCOTUS;
4) Copyright protection;
5) Coining money;
6) Establishing post offices and post roads;
7) Establishing a national set of universal weights and measures;
8 ) Taxation needed to raise revenue to perform these essential functions. (It’s important to note, that this is why constitutional conservatives are always pushing for lower taxes. Any Federal Income Tax dollar that goes to something not on this list is a violation of the US Constitution.)

These are the only responsibilities that the Federal Government has jurisdiction over. The 10th amendment to the Constitution states that anything and everything that doesn’t fall into one of the sections above is the responsibility of the State, County, Municipality, or Individual. This includes things like Education, Healthcare, Policing, Utilities, and Social Services. After all, the citizens of Hartford County Connecticut know what they need for utilities better than some elected official from Fargo, North Dakota. The Mayor of New York City understands the challenges his city faces more than an Alderman from Newnan, Georgia. Allow me to be clear about one thing here… as a conservative, I do believe it is our duty as citizens to support those who cannot support themselves, to educate our youth, to keep our streets safe, and to allow everyone the same opportunity for personal growth and fulfillment in life. I do not, however, believe that any of these things are the responsibility of the Federal Government.

I’m going to use this as a bit of a thought experiment. Right now, there are a few similarities between the original goal of the US Federal Government and the current EU. Imagine if right now, you were paying 25-40% of your take home income to the EU in addition to your current national and municipal income tax. Would you be OK with that? Would you care if your taxes went to support social programs in a completely different country? Would you care if the EU passed down requirements that your local elementary schools needed to follow? In effect, this is what the US is dealing with right now. Roughly 50% of us feel that the Federal Government needs to go back to the 8 responsibilities above, and leave the rest of it up to the States and Towns.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Well I think both sides can't understand the other's view.

[s_bushido]

I'm sure "the European crowd" around here is well aware that US conservatives love to masturbate to their small government rhetoric while simultaneously using the power of the federal government in areas that would cause them to scream bloody murder if they were on the opposite side of the issue. States have the right to decide if recreational marijuana is legal on their own? Nope, WAR ON DRUGS!!! Federal government tells them they can't discriminate against gay people anymore? Nope, STATES' RIGHTS!!!

In effect, this is what the US is dealing with right now.

Except this is horseshit. The EU is not a country. The US is. A child being raised in the US should have access to the same quality of education regardless of the state they live in, since there's nothing preventing them (or their family) from moving around in the country. Having differing standards for differing areas is the height of stupidity.

[Vertigo X]

-Snip-

You've effectively mashed all us conservatives together into what you think we all believe then decided our opinion is wrong. That's exactly why this is the most divisive our country has ever been, in my opinion.

[Xeones]

The United States doesn't even have a mainstream left wing party.

Most European countries are very left leaning.

It's really easy to see why there is a misunderstanding.

[Deleted]

Europeans seem to view themselves more as subjects than citizens when it comes to Government. They rather be ruled over than be their own rulers. The USA was founded on the principles of small Government that ensures efficiency and ordered liberty. That's why conservatives emphasis self reliance, self discipline, and personal responsibility. You have to be willing to take care of yourself or else the Government grows to powerful, and too big. Therefore taking away your liberties and the efficiency of Government.

[mvaliz]

Europeans seem to view themselves more as subjects than citizens when it comes to Government. They rather be ruled over than be their own rulers.

Oh jesus christ... The ignorance, it hurts. >_<

Prepare for a shelacking!

To respond to your ridiculous completely ignorant accusation, no - they do NOT see themselves as "subjects" like some mideval kingdom - what they understand is that taxes cycle through and eventually help the people, which ultimately helps themselves.

The ironic thing is, it seems more like people like you believe in being ruled. Your avatar speaks volumes as I'm betting you probably are a bitter person in their mid 30s or nearing 40 who refuses to evolve and adapt with society - and I can say that as I'm over 40 and am watching my friends degenerate into grumpy old men pining for some mythical "good ol' days" nonsense...

As for your "Personal responsibility" nonsense... good lord - From the George W Bush era onto today has demonstrated you're the complete OPPOSITE of that! >_<

[Deleted]

I'm sure "the European crowd" around here is well aware that US conservatives love to masturbate to their small government rhetoric while simultaneously using the power of the federal government in areas that would cause them to scream bloody murder if they were on the opposite side of the issue. States have the right to decide if recreational marijuana is legal on their own? Nope, WAR ON DRUGS!!! Federal government tells them they can't discriminate against gay people anymore? Nope, STATES' RIGHTS!!!



Except this is horseshit. The EU is not a country. The US is. A child being raised in the US should have access to the same quality of education regardless of the state they live in, since there's nothing preventing them (or their family) from moving around in the country. Having differing standards for differing areas is the height of stupidity.

"
Everyone should have a high quality education, sure. "Standards" oftentimes lead to stagnation, disengaged youth, loss of creativity, and too rigid of a system to be of even decent quality. Teachers essentially only have to teach, and many times can only teach, to the test.

Different regions have different needs. The children in different regions will need different skills in order to succeed when they become adults. Many parts of education are universal. That doesn't mean everything is or should be.

[lordsphinx]

I'm sure "the European crowd" around here is well aware that US conservatives love to masturbate to their small government rhetoric while simultaneously using the power of the federal government in areas that would cause them to scream bloody murder if they were on the opposite side of the issue. States have the right to decide if recreational marijuana is legal on their own? Nope, WAR ON DRUGS!!! Federal government tells them they can't discriminate against gay people anymore? Nope, STATES' RIGHTS!!!



Except this is horseshit. The EU is not a country. The US is. A child being raised in the US should have access to the same quality of education regardless of the state they live in, since there's nothing preventing them (or their family) from moving around in the country. Having differing standards for differing areas is the height of stupidity.

Where are you from, Bushido?

[GreenJesus]

Well I think both sides can't understand the other's view.

that really is a great info-graphic. It is so true.

[lordsphinx]

"
Everyone should have a high quality education, sure. "Standards" oftentimes lead to stagnation, disengaged youth, loss of creativity, and too rigid of a system to be of even decent quality. Teachers essentially only have to teach, and many times can only teach, to the test.

Different regions have different needs. The children in different regions will need different skills in order to succeed when they become adults. Many parts of education are universal. That doesn't mean everything is or should be.

+1
My fiancé is a teacher, and is basically shoehorned into teaching "the test" and not the subject. Ever notice how the quality of education has declined, year after year, since the creation of The US Department of Education?

[Deleted]

Oh jesus christ... The ignorance, it hurts. >_<

Prepare for a shelacking!

To respond to your ridiculous completely ignorant accusation, no - they do NOT see themselves as "subjects" like some mideval kingdom - what they understand is that taxes cycle through and eventually help the people, which ultimately helps themselves.

The ironic thing is, it seems more like people like you believe in being ruled. Your avatar speaks volumes as I'm betting you probably are a bitter person in their mid 30s or nearing 40 who refuses to evolve and adapt with society - and I can say that as I'm over 40 and am watching my friends degenerate into grumpy old men pining for some mythical "good ol' days" nonsense...

As for your "Personal responsibility" nonsense... good lord - From the George W Bush era onto today has demonstrated you're the complete OPPOSITE of that! >_<

Naw, I'm in my early 20's still, pal. I'm able to laugh at myself, and I definitely see the irony in my avatar.

Your logic is completely flawed. How does Government that encourages people to not work lead to a more successful and productive country? That makes no sense at all, and it actually encourages lazy people to stay lazy and impoverished. That leads to economic stagnation. If your economy is completely cyclical then your economy cannot grow. The only way an economy grows is by increasing output.

Personal responsibility means educating yourself (through institutions and/or through continuous self education throughout life by reading, being engaged politically, and keeping up with current events). Personal responsibility means getting a job and striving to better yourself, your position, and even your positive impact on those around you. It's about self reliance and self discipline. In the end, if people follow this sort of philosophy, we'd be much better off. People won't though. Why? Because they don't have to when they get free handouts.

George W. Bush was not a conservative. He made Government larger while lowering taxes.

[tyrlaan]

The sooner people stop trying to label themselves and each other as right/left or conservative/liberal the better off we will be. Using these terms is just a quick path to unproductive conversation at best.

Labels are for items in the grocery store, not people.

[Shadowmelded]

I'm sure "the European crowd" around here is well aware that US conservatives love to masturbate to their small government rhetoric while simultaneously using the power of the federal government in areas that would cause them to scream bloody murder if they were on the opposite side of the issue. States have the right to decide if recreational marijuana is legal on their own? Nope, WAR ON DRUGS!!! Federal government tells them they can't discriminate against gay people anymore? Nope, STATES' RIGHTS!!!

Pretty much this. Plus there are European countries that have federalized governments (Germany) or pseudo-federalism (the UK), it's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

[Sunseeker]

The idea that Europeans "just don't understand us" is ridiculous American exceptionalism based more on the fact that we choose not to understand Europeans, rather than the reverse. "We're just different", "we're special", "they don't understand us" are hallmarks of special snowflake syndrome, not an actual ideological disconnect.

Europeans, in my experience, understand Americans just fine. They just don't agree with us. Americans typically treat disagreement as a lack of understanding, you can see this in the way they treat young people.

[Eggroll]

The sooner people stop trying to label themselves and each other as right/left or conservative/liberal the better off we will be. Using these terms is just a quick path to unproductive conversation at best.

Labels are for items in the grocery store, not people.

That would be a good start indeed. It's sad how the attemt to start a good argument is dumbed down by left/right thinking and straight up prejudice instead of engaging in a productive conversation.

Personally I think Europeans could potientially understand the US mentality if they cared to educate themselves. We could probably learn from each other if we would seriously consider the advantages and disadvantages of each system. I would like a less centralized EU for instance, and yes, I'm pretty pissed that I have to pay all those useless lobbycrates in Brussels!

[downnola]

The idea that Europeans "just don't understand us" is ridiculous American exceptionalism based more on the fact that we choose not to understand Europeans, rather than the reverse. "We're just different", "we're special", "they don't understand us" are hallmarks of special snowflake syndrome, not an actual ideological disconnect.

Europeans, in my experience, understand Americans just fine. They just don't agree with us. Americans typically treat disagreement as a lack of understanding, you can see this in the way they treat young people.

I think you can find that mentality in just about every country. I don't think it's unique to American culture. And young people do lack understanding, or wisdom which is a better way of looking at it. Wisdom comes with age if you have the sense to realize that it can take a lifetime to increase your understanding of the world.

[Deleted]

its really annoying when people are so anchored in their views that they think disagreement always results from lack of comprehension

- - - Updated - - -

^ beaten to it

[Skroe]

I’ve been reading these forums for years now, and a recent post by Skroe made a light bulb go off in my head about why the European crowd here can’t understand US policy. What the non-US posters don’t understand is that the United States is not one huge, homogenous swath of land. We are divided into 50 states, 3,144 counties, and 36,011 municipalities. The US constitution defines the role, responsibility, and limitations of the Federal Government as follows:

1) Defense, war prosecution, peace, foreign relations, foreign commerce, and interstate commerce;
2) The protection of citizens’ constitutional rights (e.g the Bill of Rights) and ensuring that slavery remains illegal;
3) Establishing federal courts inferior to the SCOTUS;
4) Copyright protection;
5) Coining money;
6) Establishing post offices and post roads;
7) Establishing a national set of universal weights and measures;
8 ) Taxation needed to raise revenue to perform these essential functions. (It’s important to note, that this is why constitutional conservatives are always pushing for lower taxes. Any Federal Income Tax dollar that goes to something not on this list is a violation of the US Constitution.)

These are the only responsibilities that the Federal Government has jurisdiction over. The 10th amendment to the Constitution states that anything and everything that doesn’t fall into one of the sections above is the responsibility of the State, County, Municipality, or Individual. This includes things like Education, Healthcare, Policing, Utilities, and Social Services. After all, the citizens of Hartford County Connecticut know what they need for utilities better than some elected official from Fargo, North Dakota. The Mayor of New York City understands the challenges his city faces more than an Alderman from Newnan, Georgia. Allow me to be clear about one thing here… as a conservative, I do believe it is our duty as citizens to support those who cannot support themselves, to educate our youth, to keep our streets safe, and to allow everyone the same opportunity for personal growth and fulfillment in life. I do not, however, believe that any of these things are the responsibility of the Federal Government.

I’m going to use this as a bit of a thought experiment. Right now, there are a few similarities between the original goal of the US Federal Government and the current EU. Imagine if right now, you were paying 25-40% of your take home income to the EU in addition to your current national and municipal income tax. Would you be OK with that? Would you care if your taxes went to support social programs in a completely different country? Would you care if the EU passed down requirements that your local elementary schools needed to follow? In effect, this is what the US is dealing with right now. Roughly 50% of us feel that the Federal Government needs to go back to the 8 responsibilities above, and leave the rest of it up to the States and Towns.

I appreciate the shout out, but we need to be clear about something. The framers got many things right. But by no means did they get all things right. There is a definitive federal role in things far beyond what they envisioned... where unitary states have definitive advantages.

-The military. The concept of a "National Military" in the modern sense, came together very slowly, reaching a kind of critical mass shortly before World War I, being solidified after World War I, before being reformed before World War II. A big part of that process was replacing State militias with the National Guard. But even in that sense, the modern US Military as we think of it, a national armed forces is a post-World War II creation. In many regards, it's a post Vietnam / post Goldwater–Nichols Act (1986) creation. Yes there were things called "the US Army" that predate the founding of the United States itself. And there was the US Army of the Civil War. But like military units inheriting the heritage of historic formations that had broadly similar missions even if their composition was radically different, the US Military as a whole is sort of like that. But that is in a sense, natural. State militias, state centric arming and and ad-hoc national collaboration made sense for the first 70 years... then made less and less sense for the next 40 as the industrial age accelerated. And finally came to a close in the early 20th century. Everything after that was trying to merge the old military order with the new military order in some way.

- Scientific research. Science knows no boundaries. Scientific expertise, research requirements and funding requirements supersede State lines.

- Interstate infrastructure. Clearly having one set of national highways is better than the old state-driven highway system. But that being said, states still are responsible for construction, much of the funding and maintenance (it's complicated)


The constitution makes no direct allowances for any of these. Strictly speaking, without an interpretative view of the powers vested in the Federal government, we need a constitutional amendment that implements the National Security Act of 1947, the Goldwater-Nichols Act and dozens of other laws.

The post of mine you reference makes clear there is a distinct difference between how policy that effects every day lives is formed in America and in many European countries that is rarely appreciated in these discussions, and the biggest reason for that is many European countries (aside from the larger ones like Germany and France) are roughly the size in population, GDP and land area of US States, and when State Houses and Governors have to resolve issues, it's effects as many people with all the complexity of a European prime minister and parliament.

The genius of the American system is that this allows for a state-driven / federal-assisted dynamism. Doctrinaire anti (federal) government conservatism however, is as deluded as the unitary-state delusions of the far left. The different levels of government are ideal at solving different problems. It's as simple as that. You don't want a State-driven foreign, security or scientific policy. But on many issues that involve tax dollars, bringing it to the State level will invite greater accountability.

Maybe then Americans will actually participate in State and Local elections. A driving force behind our rather embarrassing election participation rate is that many people don't vote because they don't think it matters that they do. That's a consequence of trying to graft a unitary-state model where only Federal elections and Federal laws matter on a country of this size. If Americans wanted to have a Unitary-state model, we'd certainly want, among other things, far more granular control in the federal assemblies. That means, according to one model I recall, something like 5000 representatives, rather than 435. And probably three to four times the number of Senators.

But that seems absurd and unwieldy.

[Mittens]

Most europeans I've met are defined by their condescension towards America and their belief that the EU can do no wrong.