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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    Why do you hate aff so much? You do realise that any nerfs would make it "lol what's the point in trying" bad on pure single target fights, back to the good old days of Emerald Nightmare Ursoc/Nythendra, right?

    The only realproblem here is that they gave us strong dots back, which become extremely powerful when you can spread them. Any fool could have predicted that.
    Im not hating any spec. And nerfing it by 4-5% would not relegate it to the bottom like it was during EN. The same logic was applied to SPs during NH: "If you buff shadow it will just be as OP as it was during S2M times". And so Shadow was at the utter bottom one or two months into the raid. There is a middleground there somewhere. Right now it looks like Mythic ToS will be just like Mythic NH was for Aff.

    Are you saying we should leave Aff as it is just to witness how it will rise higher and higher in the logs?
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennus View Post
    Why do you even bother, affliction is never op in this forum, not even before the 5% nerf.
    +1, very true. Also, easier specs should dish out less DPS on average, given equal player skill. There are a lot more complex specs than Aff that have no way to deal as much damage in a fight.
    Last edited by mmoc4282a3f415; 2017-06-23 at 11:53 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    Mistress on Mythic will heavily favour Affliction above Ele because of mechanic changes. And even so, on Heroic Aff is in the Top 3 already on Mistress.
    Sisters of the Moon will also bring Aff well into the top 3 specs. Still too powerful.

    Also warriors on KJ will need to be looked at. Having one class be so good at the end boss is not OKAY.
    This reminds me of those shampoo adverts "62% of people agree" out of 90 people tested...

    The parses are way too few currently.

  3. #83
    Funny how some ppl are talking about OP and showing logs in a time, almost nobody has 4P-set and trinkets.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    Im not hating any spec. And nerfing it by 4-5% would not relegate it to the bottom like it was during EN.


    Nerfing it by 5% would still leave it "overpowered" on multidot fights and just push it down from middle of the pack in single target ones. That's the problem.

    If you "normalise" affliction on multidot fights I guarantee you will make it absolute shit everywhere else. They'd have to buff up one of our single targetmultiplier talents like Malefic Grasp to compensate

    I've said this right from the start, this is the dilemma with dot classes that they have never been able to reconcile. If you bake damage into dots and there's no limit to how many targets you can spread them to, then in effect a dot user can multiply their damage up by as many times as they can sensibly keep full stack of dots on. I'd say thatafflocks can effectively multiply up their single target damage by at least three times, or more if they use Absolute Corruption. True, our top single target damage is stillMalefic Grasp and thatis single targetonly, but Writhe in Agony is not faroff it, and that talent grows exponentially stronger the more things you dot.

    The same is true of Siphon Life. You can double it, triple it, more.

    This is why I was so suprised when they went down the "bake the damage into dots", because it's something they have never managed to balance. It's virtually impossible.

    Competetive single target damage via dots means it's multidot damage goes crazy.
    Competetive multi target damage via dots means single target only is shit.

    The only way to reconcile it is either (a) weak dots with a strong multiplier like Grasp used to be or (b) a powerful dot that can only be active on one thing and nothing else.

    If they nerf affli now to the point where it's damage is in line for multidot fights, it will be absolute garbage for something liek Goroth. We've been there, it was called Emerald Nightmare. They specifically brought in MG as a single target talent to address that, but affy's dots were so weak they had to make MG extremely strong, which lead to it being a default talent that rendered th eother obsolete.

    Maybe an answer might be, say to buff Agony a lot but have a reducer, the more things you put it on the weaker it gets, like the Bough trinket from EN. But is thatever suported by the game engine?
    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    The same logic was applied to SPs during NH: "If you buff shadow it will just be as OP as it was during S2M times". And so Shadow was at the utter bottom one or two months into the raid. There is a middleground there somewhere. Right now it looks like Mythic ToS will be just like Mythic NH was for Aff.

    Are you saying we should leave Aff as it is just to witness how it will rise higher and higher in the logs?
    - - - Updated - - -



    +1, very true. Also, easier specs should dish out less DPS on average, given equal player skill. There are a lot more complex specs than Aff that have no way to deal as much damage in a fight.
    Thing was, SP's were really not overpowered, except on Xavius where the S2M could be abused to give crazy numbers.

    They did not nerf SP's for their overall performance. They nerfed S2M because too much of SP performance was bound up in one mechanic and they felt that (a) it produced too wide a gap between those who could pull it off perfect and those who could not and (b) produced massive gaps between when you could abuse it and when you could not

    And aye, they missed the target when they tried to pull damage out of S2M and push it into other abilities

  5. #85
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    affliction needs a 10% dmg nerf at least to be considered balanced.. Whether this is flat or not, he dominates in both m+ and raids... You know when a class is completely overpowered when you can answer the "Which dps class is the best" and instead of saying "play whats fun" you say "play affliction warlock"..

    The spec needs a haircut..

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Saitama View Post
    affliction needs a 10% dmg nerf at least to be considered balanced.. Whether this is flat or not, he dominates in both m+ and raids... You know when a class is completely overpowered when you can answer the "Which dps class is the best" and instead of saying "play whats fun" you say "play affliction warlock"..

    The spec needs a haircut..
    That's about the most trisomy 21 post I've read all day in this goddamn forum, please neck yourself immediately and take your hurt feefes away with you.

    Anybody calling for nerfs before mythic should be seriously fucking taken out back and shot in-game (irl).

    Infracted - Woz
    Last edited by Woz; 2017-06-25 at 10:20 PM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by satori sartori View Post
    That's about the most trisomy 21 post I've read all day in this goddamn forum, please neck yourself immediately and take your hurt feefes away with you.

    Anybody calling for nerfs before mythic should be seriously fucking taken out back and shot in-game (irl).
    Guess blizzard should then, as they will most likely do nerfs before heroic week is over, at least that's what they did for nighthold.

  8. #88
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    Affliction is about where it should be, given the mechanics of the spec. There's no evidence of guilds stacking affliction warlocks.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthium View Post
    So, as the title says (asks, rather).

    For 4 months in a row now, there is absolutely no reason to play anything else as a warlock except this stupid, boring, brainnumbing spec that I think only a small fraction of warlock players actually enjoy (if you do, no offense, I'm just expressing how I feel and how I think MOST feel). Basically, it has EVERYTHING in it. It has insane tunnel nuke. It has insane blanket aoe coverage. It has insane Skorpyron-add style skill that just happens BY ITSELF. It can even move unlike Destro and Demo, which removes a part of your damage since you don't channel, but atleast a part of your damage HAPPENS without drain. It even has a decent cleave being a dot class. Yeah Destruction might come close in that one single scenario, but I think that apart from the first 30 seconds of the fight, Destro is not in any situation apart from MAYBE 2 target cleave, better than affliction. And even if destruction can absolutely wreck affliction on 2-target (like Inquisition fight), it's still below affliction in all other fights so people who just max out affliction don't even need to care about other 2 weapons.

    I am really enjoying the new destruction and I want to play it really badly throughout the entire progress but I wonder when Mythic comes, will it be viable to play it on something like Goroth, Harjatan, Sisters, Maiden, Avatar or KJ. I think everything indicates affliction will still be ahead on pretty much everything, and even in situations where destro will come close or even beat it, affliction will still be at his heels and more than viable in any situation.

    Hi. I love Affliction always have and always will. I play all specs but Affli is my baby.

    I did not took offence from your post but it is pretty much a useless and loaded post.

    if you took two seconds to look at warcraft logs you can confirm that Affliction is clearly ahead of the pack (in ToS) and will with all certainty be nerfed to bring it in line. As you can also see Destro is also super strong and an excellent spec for progression.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=80

    That is data for the 80th percentile but the pattern holds for pretty much all skill levels in heroic difficulty.

    So you can relax and enjoy your spec.

  10. #90
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    If you look at the videos posted by top locks like Terryn you will see thataffliction does not dominate, because he is actually doing whathe should instead of cheesing meaningless extra damage

    Terryn knows how to play aff and yet he's being beat by plenty of other classes

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by demonyaa View Post
    Hi. I love Affliction always have and always will. I play all specs but Affli is my baby.

    I did not took offence from your post but it is pretty much a useless and loaded post.

    if you took two seconds to look at warcraft logs you can confirm that Affliction is clearly ahead of the pack (in ToS) and will with all certainty be nerfed to bring it in line. As you can also see Destro is also super strong and an excellent spec for progression.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=80

    That is data for the 80th percentile but the pattern holds for pretty much all skill levels in heroic difficulty.

    So you can relax and enjoy your spec.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=80&boss=2032

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=80&boss=2050

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=80&boss=2052

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=80&boss=2051


    Affliction is being bent by fights where it can cheese tony of extra damage, particularly the Host where you can dump Absolute Corruption and then switch phases

    If they nerf aff to be "in line" for those fights then it will be awful for fights where you can't cheese by multidotting

    That's four bosses out of nine where aff is middle of the pack, a couple where it is top and curiously enough where Shadow Priests the other main dot classe are also doing extremely well.

    If they do any nerfs they should tony down the dot damage a bit and buff up single target by boosting Malefic Grasp

    If they just do a generalised nerf they will recreate the problem we had in EN.

    If they did a big nerf and made aff average on fights like Inquisition or Host then it would be absolutely shit on single target stuff like Goroth.

    Remembering that this is the first week, and affliction has a big mobility advantage for people learning fights. When turret classes have Gorth type fights down to farm they will pull even further ahead.

  11. #91
    Warchief Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taus View Post
    I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm talking Wrath Afflic. It was worse then, way worse. It's nothing like this now. You have to pay a little attention to breakpoints but not like you used to. Tuned to being a little OP is better for the game than the way it was in Wrath.
    I barely remember wrath aff tbh. I remember Cata and MoP though, wasn't really a huge difficulty increase either way to me but that's completely anecdotal on my part - you could have a better memory for the spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    Affliction is about where it should be, given the mechanics of the spec. There's no evidence of guilds stacking affliction warlocks.
    Where would find that evidence? From guilds who won't even stream M progression or strats? We're a little bit above where we should be for the encounter types, hard to read the numbers and deduce otherwise unless you're an idiot or willfully ignorant.

    There is always the possibility that you suddenly got really good at the game relative to anyone playing other classes and specs, that's what you're hoping for yea? I hope you're right!
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2017-06-23 at 08:27 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    I barely remember wrath aff tbh. I remember Cata and MoP though, wasn't really a huge difficulty increase either way to me but that's completely anecdotal on my part - you could have a better memory for the spec.

    - - - Updated - - -
    So, the amount of finesse, knowledge, and addons required today to perform moderately well as Affliction would equate very substandard performance as Affliction in Wrath. First, to even compete with Destro you needed a certain haste breakpoint that wasn't incredibly easy to achieve. Once you hit that, you had to be very aware of your various haste procs, and whether or not the previous DoT had been placed with those buffs or better ones. If your new state was better than the old state, iirc, you were supposed to let the DoT fall off and then recast. Then once that DoT was cast, you had to never, ever let it fall off - refreshing the DoT would keep the previous state rolling, not snapshot your stats. So every fight was a very careful dance of building up the best, say, Corruption, and then good performance absolutely required that it never fall off through the entire fight. Add to this the fact that there were many more things to cast as well, and it was quite stressful. The numbers result of this were basically two things happened - you executed perfectly, or you did not. If you were perfect (and lucky with RNG), you absolutely blew the meters away. If you didn't - in ANY way, because generally this kind of setup is pretty binary - you were down - way down. There was no middle.

    As far as Demo, at the time it was considered a buff spec and they were there mostly for the raid buff they brought. They weren't expected to perform as well, but you could squeeze a good fight out if you did your SF weaving correctly. I don't really remember that so much these days, but I do know it was more forgiving than Affliction but less than Destro. Destro's problem at the time was really one of scaling.

    TL;DR - I'm still not sure I previously properly conveyed that the specs are easier now in the present, and were harder then, in the past. The difficulty has decreased over time, not increased.

    So again, Affliction might need some tweaks - I'm not playing it much currently, so I can't really speak to it. I do know that as Destro at iLvl 899 right now I tend to beat most locks of other specs unless it's a novel situation like Scorpion or something similar. However, in general the class has three specs that are performing pretty damn well right now, and that makes this expansion the first time that has happened in my memory. An argument can be make that adjustments and tweaks should be done, but my whole point was that I disagree that there's a massive problem and it's majorly OP.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    Where would find that evidence? From guilds who won't even stream M progression or strats? We're a little bit above where we should be for the encounter types, hard to read the numbers and deduce otherwise unless you're an idiot or willfully ignorant.

    There is always the possibility that you suddenly got really good at the game relative to anyone playing other classes and specs, that's what you're hoping for yea? I hope you're right!
    You would find that evidence from the same source you got the affliction dps numbers from, of course.

    (I'm not currently playing affliction btw so that ad hominem of yours was a miss. But I guess jumping into conclusions is not unexpected of someone who seemingly bases his opinions on "Player damage statistics: All bosses" rankings on WCL without any deeper analysis.)

  14. #94
    Also, there's a logic cap in the OP that I see a lot when these things are brought up by players who want to be cutting edge. They're stating they won't play Destro because they don't feel it will be as viable as Affliction, but effectively the thesis of the post is that Affliction needs to be bumped down, not the other two specs bumped up. Therefore, if they got what they wanted, Affliction would only be as viable as Destro is currently. Ergo, I doubt the difference makes that much of a difference in actual application, and they should just play the spec they friggin' want to play and stop worrying about whether they could do 1.5% more DPS if they were playing a spec they enjoyed less. To really and truly TLDR my entire point - the gaps between the three specs are not significant enough to worry about.

  15. #95
    Warchief Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taus View Post
    So, the amount of finesse, knowledge, and addons required today to perform moderately well as Affliction would equate very substandard performance as Affliction in Wrath. First, to even compete with Destro you needed a certain haste breakpoint that wasn't incredibly easy to achieve. Once you hit that, you had to be very aware of your various haste procs, and whether or not the previous DoT had been placed with those buffs or better ones. If your new state was better than the old state, iirc, you were supposed to let the DoT fall off and then recast. Then once that DoT was cast, you had to never, ever let it fall off - refreshing the DoT would keep the previous state rolling, not snapshot your stats. So every fight was a very careful dance of building up the best, say, Corruption, and then good performance absolutely required that it never fall off through the entire fight. Add to this the fact that there were many more things to cast as well, and it was quite stressful. The numbers result of this were basically two things happened - you executed perfectly, or you did not. If you were perfect (and lucky with RNG), you absolutely blew the meters away. If you didn't - in ANY way, because generally this kind of setup is pretty binary - you were down - way down. There was no middle.

    As far as Demo, at the time it was considered a buff spec and they were there mostly for the raid buff they brought. They weren't expected to perform as well, but you could squeeze a good fight out if you did your SF weaving correctly. I don't really remember that so much these days, but I do know it was more forgiving than Affliction but less than Destro. Destro's problem at the time was really one of scaling.

    TL;DR - I'm still not sure I previously properly conveyed that the specs are easier now in the present, and were harder then, in the past. The difficulty has decreased over time, not increased.

    So again, Affliction might need some tweaks - I'm not playing it much currently, so I can't really speak to it. I do know that as Destro at iLvl 899 right now I tend to beat most locks of other specs unless it's a novel situation like Scorpion or something similar. However, in general the class has three specs that are performing pretty damn well right now, and that makes this expansion the first time that has happened in my memory. An argument can be make that adjustments and tweaks should be done, but my whole point was that I disagree that there's a massive problem and it's majorly OP.
    You are correct, I did misrepresent your earlier argument. Also a good lesson in SS'ing for anyone who didn't know how it affected their rotation in past iterations of spec mechanics I guess. I have been careful to point out that aff is very forgiving these days, bringing the baseline of parses up to an unhealthy level.

    If we consider the slope of declining spec difficulty, this post insinuates that destro some how got.. err.. comparatively less easy *cringe.. since cata. Not sure I agree there, if you make a mistake as destro it effects several of the subsequent actions but the mistake itself is about as easily avoided. Imo. (edit - to be fair, you did pluralize specs so let's assume that is a point in general that we agree on as well)

    For the record I haven't called anything massively overpowered since the introduction BM stampede and warrior DB in MoP 3v3. I've simply been saying (or trying to say) that we'd be fine after a 3-5% adjustment IF it happens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    You would find that evidence from the same source you got the affliction dps numbers from, of course.

    (I'm not currently playing affliction btw so that ad hominem of yours was a miss. But I guess jumping into conclusions is not unexpected of someone who seemingly bases his opinions on "Player damage statistics: All bosses" rankings on WCL without any deeper analysis.)
    This isn't really worth responding to except to say; we'll see if aff gets adjusted or not.

    Not sure what response you expected with that attempt to save face by contributing (again) nothing substantive but.. congrats?

    Side note because this sort of thing bugs me a bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    I guess jumping into conclusions is not unexpected
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    bases his opinions on "Player damage statistics: All bosses" rankings
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    I'm not currently playing affliction btw

    You see the issue there, I assume?
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2017-06-23 at 09:34 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    this post insinuates that destro some how got.. err.. comparatively less easy *cringe.. since cata.
    I'm not sure where you're getting that. I've been maining Destro since Ulduar and its difficulty is actually remarkably unchanged. I'm not referring to it much because there's not much to say. It's in a good spot last few xpaks because it doesn't fall off the cliff when other specs end up scaling better. I'll be honest - I play it specifically *because it's pretty easy, and contrary to popular wisdom, I actually find it to be adequately mobile. I'm even pretty okay with the AOE, which historically has been a problem.

    If anything, it's easier than it was in Cata, although somewhat closer now that we're dealing with fragments and not infinite shards+havoc anymore.

    Edit: I don't really have much skin in this game outside of my main concern, which was fixing the problems with the class. For a long time this has been Demo and Affliction. (If someone doesn't like destro, they could make that argument, but it is what it is.) Over the last two expansions those two problems have been largely addressed, so a complaint that one of them might be a little *too good now is a silly argument to me.

    From what I can see, I tend to agree that overall a 5-10% nerf might be fine. However, I don't really agree that it's necessary. Changes have unintended consequences - there's relative equilibrium right now.
    Last edited by Taus; 2017-06-24 at 01:08 AM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post

    Where would find that evidence? From guilds who won't even stream M progression or strats?
    Works both ways, if you're dismissing evidence because you assume its lacking then we must also assume other clases might be performing better and therefore saying affliction is OP from the current logs is a falacy.

  18. #98
    Goroth, Harjatan, Sisters, Maiden, Avatar?

  19. #99
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    This isn't really worth responding to except to say; we'll see if aff gets adjusted or not.

    Not sure what response you expected with that attempt to save face by contributing (again) nothing substantive but.. congrats?

    Side note because this sort of thing bugs me a bit:

    You see the issue there, I assume?
    Yes: because of your lack of (counter)arguments you're instead trying various deflections, such as cutting my post into tiny fragments. You may also be embarrassed about having been confronted about your double-standards: logs, "Player damage statistics: All bosses" in particular, are apparently good enough for you to "conclude" that affli needs nerfs but at the same time you dismiss these same logs as evidence e.g. for affliction's balanced representation. Those are the issues that I immediately saw there, there are probably more.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post


    Where would find that evidence? From guilds who won't even stream M progression or strats? We're a little bit above where we should be for the encounter types, hard to read the numbers and deduce otherwise unless you're an idiot or willfully ignorant.
    You do realise that you can use the same logs site to look at individual raid encounters and break down raid compositions? Heck you can break them down to individual player level and see what their damage sources were.

    If you bothered to do that, you'd see that on the Host fight, the afflocks putting up silly numbers are using Absolute Corruption and are switching realms to keep up dot stacks on everything. Even to the point where they are ignoring mechanics like killing adds chasing people just to cheese big numbers. Wouldn;t surpise me to see a hotfix that locks players into one realm and forbids swapping, they could introduce a cooldown of debuff associated with switching, that would allow raids to compensate for deaths but prevent dot classes from realm-switch-cheese.

    That's rathe rlike the surrender to madness thing happening on Xavius, except thatwas actually more useful.

    Youo'd have to nerf affliction by ten or fifteen percent to brin git "in line" on the two fights where it's exceptional, which is Inquisition and Host, and if you did that affliction would go to absolute rock bottom of the garbage can terrible on the four fights where it's middl eof the pack.

    The only way to avoid it would be to reduce the strength of dots but to up the value of Malefic Grasp, or even Drain Soul (both of which are single target only).

    But they've only just finished nerfing MG and putting the damage into dots, and baking it in DS would spoil one of affliction's traditional strengths (mobility), and centre everything on Drain uptimes, whch they have specifically tried to avoid, even to the point of changing the T20 bonuses.

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