'All priests should wed same-sex couples': Swedish PM

[Acidbaron]

I'm all for churches refusing the marry people they disagree with, only speeds up the process of the church its own demise due to lack of relevance in todays society.

[Powerogue]

What matters is that people who want to get married, can. As long as that is met, who cares if someone's religion is making them not want to house that in their church? That's their problem.

At the end of the day the goal of society isn't "force everyone to act the way I expect them to act and conform to my specific worldview" it's "let's all live together in this shared space, despite our differences, without killing each other."

Hasn't that always been the line? That as long as it's not hurting other people we can deal with it?

[Zoranon]

These church have been exempted from taxes in most of the western world... if they want to keep that privilege, they certainly should be forced to use the rules government see fits.

Ok there seems a depressing number of people here that are ignorant of both the concepts of freedom of religion and separation of church and state. It is rather sad really.

[Torgent]

Do you think they'll even suggest that muslims would be forced to marry gay couples? Oh god, you're killing me.

The swedes shit their pants at the thought of offending them.

Look, I understand. Reading above a first grade level is difficult. This would only apply to priests working for the church of Sweden. If they aren't working for church of Sweden, they can do whatever they want.

[Serpha]

So the same goes for mosques? Or we can't interfere with their culture?

[minteK917]

Ok there seems a depressing number of people here that are ignorant of both the concepts of freedom of religion and separation of church and state. It is rather sad really.

That separation was made to remove religion grips on government, not the other way around.

[kail]

The fact that they get a free pass from taxes, should give them even less freedom, not more.

They get a free pass because they are established as a religious organization. Tax paying businesses of any kind must abide by discrimination laws. You have it mixed up.

[Halicia]

If you're a heterosexual couple... "No, you can't get married here unless you go through pre-marriage counseling and aren't divorced and blahblahblah"

If you're a homosexual couple... "We can't tell you no, so it doesn't matter what we expect of others, we can't expect it of you."

How is this *not* discrimination based on sexual orientation ?

[minteK917]

They get a free pass because they are established as a religious organization. Tax paying businesses of any kind must abide by discrimination laws. You have it mixed up.

No its the fact the world had it mixed for too long. Conservative would be the first to whine for a single citizen on welfare not being subject to rules. Religious welfare should just no longer be a thing. They give us nothing, that goes for all of them not just christian church. If they need the hand out, they need to evolve.

[Zoranon]

That separation was made to remove religion grips on government, not the other way around.

That is an absolutely ridiculous idea.

But given that you seem to hate religion and churches, any further discussion with you is likely to be a waste of time.

[minteK917]

That is an absolutely ridiculous idea.

But given that you seem to hate religion and churches, any further discussion with you is likely to be a waste of time.

its a waste of time to discuss historical facts anyway. The separation of church and states did not start to help church be free of government influence, it was made for the total opposite reason. Doesent matter what you want to discuss.

[Dezerte]

If you pay the Church-tax (the majority do) you are entitled to by law to be able to marry there. And the Church of Sweden has allowed gay-marriages since 2009 when they had a vote among their members. So just to clarify what isn't the issue here.

The issue is that no priest has been forced to wed a same-sex couple if they didn't want to. Löfven is saying such priests shouldn't even be priests at these churches. He only has a point because we pay a Church-tax, but I wonder if this really is wise.

[kail]

No its the fact the world had it mixed for too long. Conservative would be the first to whine for a single citizen on welfare not being subject to rules. Religious welfare should just no longer be a thing. They give us nothing, that goes for all of them not just christian church. If they need the hand out, they need to evolve.

It's not about handouts so much. What reason do we have to tax religious organizations? Much of their income is based on donations really, which are also non-taxed. They are non-profit and are not selling tangible goods or services to others (maybe jewelry, books, t-shirts), just simply a big club of likeminded people. Government has zero business to meddle with religion if they promise freedom of religion. Zeek brought up the best solution in keeping marriages government based where churches are there for ceremonies.

[Zoranon]

its a waste of time to discuss historical facts anyway. The separation of church and states did not start to help church be free of government influence, it was made for the total opposite reason. Doesent matter what you want to discuss.

You are simply wrong, the separation was made to prevent both church meddling in the government and the government meddling in the church. But given that you seem to think that discussioning history is a waste of time, I guess you are proud of your ignorance. Well another one for the ignore list I guess.

[zealo]

If Sweden abides by separation of government and state, then the government should have zero room to meddle with Church teachings and activities (within the law of course).

The state can and should recognize and honor marriages for same-sex couples. That's what matters. Religion isn't some tax paying business that has to obey discrimination laws.

If people are registered members of the church in Sweden the funding of the church comes on the taxes, actually. You become a member of the church if you've been baptised in the church shortly after birth automatically, which is a more cultural than religious practise at this point. This is reflected in how many swedes are registered Christians, but how few actually visit church. The church as it is now is getting quite a bit of funding by people who aren't active Christians too.

Id say the state actually are in a position to put some influence on the church when deemed necessary with this arrangement.

[kail]

If you pay the Church-tax (the majority do) you are entitled to by law to be able to marry there. And the Church of Sweden has allowed gay-marriages since 2009 when they had a vote among their members. So just to clarify what isn't the issue here.

The issue is that no priest has been forced to wed a same-sex couple if they didn't want to. Löfven is saying such priests shouldn't even be priests at these churches. He only has a point because we pay a Church-tax, but I wonder if this really is wise.

Yeah, hard to discuss Sweden's situation without knowing their laws and tax codes.

[Endus]

Since this crosses into both sexuality and religious discussion, both banned topics, I'm locking this here.