[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Ulthane]

They are not willing to. The problem is, Crusade works fairly well we just need better tuning and better single target damage so they don't seem to plan a rehaul. The problem is, for many other specs with similar questions they did say they planned changes but for next expansion, no such indication for us. Partly it's less of a problem ofc because as I said, Crusade is not a problem in a vacuum, the synergy with all the different effects that augment Avenging Wrath is what makes Crusade an OP talent.

Then screw it, make Crusade baseline so Avenging Wrath functions like that only for Ret and do something else with the 100 row.

Things that need to be evaluated in this
-Blade of Wrath
-Final Verdict
-Crusade
-Fires of Justice

Bake those into baseline and do something different with the talent rows and watch us have actual options on top of better damage.

[Reith]

There was nothing wrong with crusade ever and their idiotic excuse for stating otherwise "we don't like how ret does damage" is just idiocy and hypocracy squared (check other specs and wonder).

There is a problem with Retribution passive however, esp how it double dips with crusade...

No point stating the obvious tho; because Blizztard has always and will always be biased and 2faced towards Retribution as a spec. History does not lie.

Dude, MoP Ret was freakin' awesome. I LOVED it. The options you had were amazing. You felt like you had a choice with talents and things weren't necessarily just straight-up damage bullshit. You could use Execution Sentence AS A HEAL on a friendly player! It was awesome! It was Stay of Execution when it was used as a heal.

[Temna]

@Ulthane Crusade being baseline is not the play I think. IF (big if since overall health would dictate that Crusade be removed in its current form) we are to keep Crusade as an option, then what I think would be the play is making the duration 30 seconds flat and reworking WotA to be almost a CoF weapon talent (can make it work of holy power spent, carded rng, etc) then readjust the numbers accordingly.

Final Verdict does need to be baseline I agree, that talent has never made any sense >.>

[Neldarie]

Dude, MoP Ret was freakin' awesome. I LOVED it. The options you had were amazing. You felt like you had a choice with talents and things weren't necessarily just straight-up damage bullshit. You could use Execution Sentence AS A HEAL on a friendly player! It was awesome! It was Stay of Execution when it was used as a heal.

Say that again at the end of SoO farm. Tho I do prolly agree with you that overall MoP had ret as good as we ever got it to be, still far from perfect or like I said two-faced biased treatment some other specs are getting.

And again there is/was nothing wrong with crusade. Ret has always been a spec revolving around its burst (wings), and Crusade - in its pure strongest form (end of ToV just before the mass nerf hammer) was completely fine.

The roleplaying idiots (the devs) as can be seen from the latest interview and comments made on Retribution passive make my mind boggle tho.

[Reith]

Final Verdict does need to be baseline I agree, that talent has never made any sense >.>

Our talents are mostly a joke. Execution Sentence used to be able to heal or damage, Consecration was a baseline ability, Zeal was Seal of Righteousness, Virtue's Blade is a joke, Blade of Wrath was a baseline function of Exorcism (which Blade of Justice replaced), Divine Hammer is okay, Justicar's Vengeance is pretty decent as a talent and an idea, Word of Glory was a baseline ability that used to be glyphable into a ranged finisher and it was actually useful as a heal, not only that but glyphable to give a damage bonus if you were using it often so it didn't offset damage too much, Divine Intervention is nothing compared to what Unbreakable Will was, Cavalier is a joke for a joke movement ability, Judgment of Light was a seal, Divine Purpose was 25% before (and even then some people thought it was "too unreliable" lol little did they know), Crusade is just a replacement for Sanctified Wrath and actually it's worse because it takes away the bonus healing component, not to mention we rely so much on it than ever before, Holy Wrath is a joke.

[Ulthane]

@Ulthane Crusade being baseline is not the play I think. IF (big if since overall health would dictate that Crusade be removed in its current form) we are to keep Crusade as an option, then what I think would be the play is making the duration 30 seconds flat and reworking WotA to be almost a CoF weapon talent (can make it work of holy power spent, carded rng, etc) then readjust the numbers accordingly.

Final Verdict does need to be baseline I agree, that talent has never made any sense >.>

Thats actually a good perspective honestly.

- - - Updated - - -

Our talents are mostly a joke. Execution Sentence used to be able to heal or damage, Consecration was a baseline ability, Zeal was Seal of Righteousness, Virtue's Blade is a joke, Blade of Wrath was a baseline function of Exorcism (which Blade of Justice replaced), Divine Hammer is okay, Justicar's Vengeance is pretty decent as a talent and an idea, Word of Glory was a baseline ability that used to be glyphable into a ranged finisher and it was actually useful as a heal, not only that but glyphable to give a damage bonus if you were using it often so it didn't offset damage too much, Divine Intervention is nothing compared to what Unbreakable Will was, Cavalier is a joke for a joke movement ability, Judgment of Light was a seal, Divine Purpose was 25% before (and even then some people thought it was "too unreliable" lol little did they know), Crusade is just a replacement for Sanctified Wrath and actually it's worse because it takes away the bonus healing component, not to mention we rely so much on it than ever before, Holy Wrath is a joke.

I have always had the perspective that Justicar's Vengeance needs to replace Templar's Verdict and could have provided a "super" finisher for those who like that playstyle.

Personally it's fun, I like it. But alas I am using Templar's Verdict because thats what we have to do or the damage is bad :<

[Temna]

@Reith I've always liked the idea of JV being a Chi Explosion style of talent, could have been a neat sort of design space to look into.

[Deleted]

What's the problem with wings being truly best burst in game lasting 20 secs without ramp up time? Don't really get crusade seems a downgrade requiring 30 secs of tunneling to pay.

[Lumineus]

Crusade IS a downgrade without Ashbringer equipped. It's tuned to be DPS-neutral (and thus, does nothing except backload your burst phase) because you can go from 10 seconds of full stacks on Draenor to 28 seconds with traits/relics in Legion.

[Deleted]

@Ulthane Crusade being baseline is not the play I think. IF (big if since overall health would dictate that Crusade be removed in its current form) we are to keep Crusade as an option, then what I think would be the play is making the duration 30 seconds flat and reworking WotA to be almost a CoF weapon talent (can make it work of holy power spent, carded rng, etc) then readjust the numbers accordingly.

Final Verdict does need to be baseline I agree, that talent has never made any sense >.>

It makes sense when the other 2 options are super clunky and horrible to use. I like FV just cause it prevents me from having to dive in that cesspool.

- - - Updated - - -

What I'd do:
Retribution (Passive) nerfed to only 10% more damage and also has the effect of the Protection Talent Retribution Aura
Divine Purpose moved to Tier 1 in Final Verdict's place
In Divine's Purpose place: Ceaseless Vigil: Avenging Wrath now has 3 charges
Holy Wrath and Hammer of Reckoning switch places, Hammer of Reckoning gains a stack of Reckoning every time your Retribution Aura deals damage.

If only we had someone sensible in charge eh? I like your ideas.
I go further with the ret passive nerf though. 5% at best for me, better completely removed.

With that said, it would mess the ring of the highlord.

[Dugna]

Yeah I was thinking 5% as well. I mean if it has to be there, 5% is probably enough. I still would like for the RETRIBUTION spec to have the RETRIBUTION AURA though

I found it weird that prot has Ret aura, while ret doesn't even have anything like it.

[Reith]

Crusade IS a downgrade without Ashbringer equipped. It's tuned to be DPS-neutral (and thus, does nothing except backload your burst phase) because you can go from 10 seconds of full stacks on Draenor to 28 seconds with traits/relics in Legion.

Oh just wait until you get Soul of the Highlord. Potentially 35 seconds left on Crusade already at 13 stacks. Gotta get lucky for the first one, but you can kinda game subsequent Crusades throughout the fight to get 15 stacks in 4 GCDs fairly reliably (not sure if that would be preferable overall to using TVs with your HP, would have to work that out)

As for Retribution (passive), it doesn't matter if it fits the "class fantasy" or not. You're taking away gameplay from the player. They have no control over this passive unless they ask someone to die, and wtf kind of gameplay is Blizzard encouraging with that? You're basically just hoping people die, otherwise. Gameplay comes before "class fantasy," Blizzard.

[Morally Grey Storm]

How come you people are not happy with Retribution out of the blue?
We're below mediocre, which is fine.
What ails you all of a sudden?

[Temna]

@Nemmar Oh no disagreement there, my issue with the talent has always been that it doesn't really fit with what the changes to the talent system was supposed to do. Its not particularly interesting its just smOrc BIGHITHITMOREHARD smOrc.

[GutsAP]

How come you people are not happy with Retribution out of the blue?
We're below mediocre, which is fine.
What ails you all of a sudden?

Bottom of the barrel would be a more apt description.

[Deleted]

Bottom of the barrel would be a more apt description.

Couldn't agree more. Below mediocre sounds... meh, whilst utter dogshit seems more appropriate.

[Deleted]

Wait i thought we were under the bottom of the barrel with the roaches and the insects.

[killwithpwr]

At least i get to shine on KJ and Host....

The idea to nerf Retribution (passive) is kinda moot... Getting rid of it is the best option. It is beyond stupid and makes absolutly no sense... Blizz wants it ingame? Give it to Fury... Or tanks.

Its worse than Inquisition and Seraphim combined...

Most of the talent tree for Ret needs an overhall...

I like the idea of having DP instead of FV, but it will still be the go to talent, since ES and cons are not competitive.

And either moving Holy wrath to Tank, or removing it completely would be bliss... Stupidest PvE talent i have seen.

[Morally Grey Storm]

At times like this , I do really fething miss Reghyime.
Oh boy he could lift up the spirits. But alas.

[Reith]

Most of the talent tree for Ret needs an overhall...

Most of the talents either got replaced by baseline abilities (or worse, a single effect of a baseline ability) or had their effects chopped in half (or more) or outright removed with no replacement at all.

I like the idea of having DP instead of FV, but it will still be the go to talent, since ES and cons are not competitive.

They structured boring artifact traits, relics, legendaries and talents around baseline abilities, which is a big problem for talented abilities.