I hope M+ is scrapped

[Verdugo]

Are you forgetting more higher the key, the more affixes?

Or are you going to say affixes don't add an extra challenge?

Affixes only add up until 10, after that its only HP/dmg modifier aura.

You didnt know that, was 10 the highest one you did?

[Jester Joe]

Affixes only add up until 10, after that its only HP/dmg modifier aura.

You didnt know that, was 10 the highest one you did?

I don't quite recall saying there was more past 10, so no need to try to put words into my mouth.

Your claim was the whole thing is just a difficulty slider, which is incorrect.

[ablib]

Thats not even the point how the hell you get your AP? At this point you must be at least 10 points behind everyone.

I've never done M+. I think it's silly. I hardly ever play, and I have 2 points into concordance. To me that's fine. I stopped caring about AP after hitting concordance.

[Leodok]

-3 tiers of cutting edge achievements isn't enough to get into a M+ run

It seems the problem is with the players, not M+...

How do you expect them to prevent that from happening? By making the dungeons easier? But weren't they already extremely easy?

[Wilfire]

NVM I didn't really think things through. Apologies for riling people up and please lock / delete this thread.

[Pua]

This is a gross exaggeration. It may not be for you, but people are not nearly that grouchy in M+.

For that to be the case, Mythic+ would need to be a trend-breaking part of the community. That just doesn't seem likely, given how it's designed.

Perhaps it's your experience that's atypical? Just a thought.

[Deathquoi]

For that to be the case, Mythic+ would need to be a trend-breaking part of the community. That just doesn't seem likely, given how it's designed.

Perhaps it's your experience that's atypical? Just a thought.

I don't think so. It tends to be self selecting so you don't get the mouthbreathers that populate normal, heroic and LFR and people don't take it as seriously as plugging raids. I'm not sure how, when I've done it and you haven't, you can really tell me what the experience is like.

[Pua]

I don't think so. It tends to be self selecting so you don't get the mouthbreathers that populate normal, heroic and LFR and people don't take it as seriously as plugging raids. I'm not sure how, when I've done it and you haven't, you can really tell me what the experience is like.

I'm not really telling you anything, I'm asking whether or not you're aware that citing my experience is anecdotal is an indictment on your own.

And I have taken part in Mythic+, earlier in the expansion. I found it a little better than Mythic itself, player wise, probably because that experience is so miserable that a large chunk of that part of the PuG community isn't interested in taking the next step. The group either ran through thanks to overgeared tanks and/or healers, or had an appropriately geared group that had the "everyone else sucks but me" attitude I alluded to in my first post.

But here's the point:

Why is the timer there?

Honestly, I can't figure it out. It's an absolutely arbitrary inclusion, thanks to the never-ending scaling that takes place via keystones. The inclusion of the clock dumps a lot of people out (however that may be mitigated) who might otherwise get involved, and I can see no objective reason for it to be included in the mode. It's totally superfluous.

[BananaHandsB]

Level appropriate M+ is way harder than Level appropriate raiding in that an individual is 20% of the success.
Once a raid is aware of the mechanics, in a raid a typical dpser is 5% of the success.

So I vote we scrap raiding instead OP.

O this trite argument. Try mythic raiding friend. That "5%" can easily cause a wipe by themselves, meaning you increase your potential for error for every player you add. With 5 ppl, you reduce the potential error dramatically and trivialize many mechanics that are otherwise difficult to coordinate with larger numbers.

[Raiju]

Just 3 manned Naraxas on 16+ because the tank got eaten by him LEL. It was so difficult that we did it with 40% of the group (including the tank) dead. I'm gonna trust you on this one guys, if mythic raiding is easier then I can't wait to kill that Kil'jaeden dude with half the team dead.

Outside of a weekly single item mythic+ drops heroic (nonkj) ilvl iirc, and yes, you can kill the first 6 bosses with half the team dead and noone having a clue what they are doing for the first 5. Pre-tomb M+ had definitely shifted to be far easier gearing than NH (ignoring items you NEED from raids like tier/certain trinkets) but not tomb seems to balanced to undermine that, pre-mythic/end of hc.

@Aviemore the timer is there by necessity, since otherwise the highest gear levels would have to be obtainable by running heavy CC comps and killing single mobs at a time on fortified weeks for the max gear to not be even more of a joke than it has become at this point, which means even few classes get taken and there's 0 pressure past fighting a single giant trash mob. Nearly all affixes become irrelevant as well.

[melodramocracy]

Props to you OP for editing your statement.

[schwarzkopf]

O this trite argument.

I suspect you missed the point.... and after missing the point, completely ignored the actual words.

Well done on the 241

[Deathquoi]

I'm not really telling you anything, I'm asking whether or not you're aware that citing my experience is anecdotal is an indictment on your own.

And I have taken part in Mythic+, earlier in the expansion. I found it a little better than Mythic itself, player wise, probably because that experience is so miserable that a large chunk of that part of the PuG community isn't interested in taking the next step. The group either ran through thanks to overgeared tanks and/or healers, or had an appropriately geared group that had the "everyone else sucks but me" attitude I alluded to in my first post.

But here's the point:

Why is the timer there?

Honestly, I can't figure it out. It's an absolutely arbitrary inclusion, thanks to the never-ending scaling that takes place via keystones. The inclusion of the clock dumps a lot of people out (however that may be mitigated) who might otherwise get involved, and I can see no objective reason for it to be included in the mode. It's totally superfluous.

I never dismissed your experience as anecdotal and not meriting consideration. You willingly admitted you hadn't run M+, so I replied that I wasn't sure how you could determine that the community of people doing it sucked without having done it yourself.

The timer is there to prevent people from doing stupid things like waiting for CDs on every pull. It's to keep you moving. It's not really that big a deal.

What I'm getting from your posts is that your primary beef is the timer. Without the three chest thing, the timer is really barely a concern and doesn't lend itself to any kind of toxic behavior, yet you seem opposed to even considering that M+ could be ok because you "took part in it earlier in the expansion". To each his own, I guess.

[TheVaryag]

NVM I didn't really think things through. Apologies for riling people up and please lock / delete this thread.

Whatever It is you said, M+ should be scrapped regardless. It's nothing but Challange Mode from WoD, people wanna timerun dungeons? Phones have a timer. Or just ask Blizz to give us challenge Mode while the other people run a proper normal dungeon and have a true dungeon experience!

Mythic + aka Speedrunning Dungeon aka Challange Mode will dumb down the experience to just rushing through It, promote elitism and not encourage players to even go to a dungeon knowing everyone will expect you to just rush through It with perfection.

A true dungeon experience, Is what we used to have In say TBC and to some extent even Cataclysm dungeons. The bosses were challanging, they took time, knowledge of their tactics and the execution of those tactics properly. Personal responsiblity for certain tactics during a boss fight. Fighting groups of mobs, knowing which to CC (that's dead these days, since Cata and arguably since Wrath), who to prioritize to kill over the other. Cause mobs don't all just die to AoE within 5 seconds, If you didn't target down mobs properly you'd be overwhelmed. And no It does not have the same elitism as speedrunning a dungeon does, there's a margin for error a reasonable one with random groups of mobs.

To me, as a 12 year long player of wow that's the dungeon experience I remember and want back, not only for myself but for new players and current players to experience If they haven't already done so themselves like I have.

[RoKPaNda]

Hope so too.

If you don't spend 24/7 M+ing, you are basically wasting time and letting your guild down.

M+ was basically the biggest mistake Blizz did in Legion (along with Titanforged). Have fun trying to be in any semi-competent guild while working.

Only if your guild is awful.

And titanforging is only a problem if you're asmongold. Titanforging and M+ are the best things about this expansion, only asmongold and tryhards whine about either.

[Pua]

@Aviemore the timer is there by necessity, since otherwise the highest gear levels would have to be obtainable by running heavy CC comps and killing single mobs at a time on fortified weeks for the max gear to not be even more of a joke than it has become at this point, which means even few classes get taken and there's 0 pressure past fighting a single giant trash mob. Nearly all affixes become irrelevant as well.

I disagree. All the timer does is discourage a significant number of players at the bottom, where the issue you bring up (though valid) would only mildly influence a tiny percentage of players at the top.

But like most everything in the game, it's not a "necessity". It's a design choice, and one that has an impact at the wrong end of the player spectrum.

What I'm getting from your posts is that your primary beef is the timer.

Erm... Yeah. That's not a wrong assessment. I'll maybe give the feature a whirl when my daughter starts sleeping properly again in order to see what the changes have done.

[Raiju]

I disagree. All the timer does is discourage a significant number of players at the bottom, where the issue you bring up (though valid) would only mildly influence a tiny percentage of players at the top.

But like most everything in the game, it's not a "necessity". It's a design choice, and one that has an impact at the wrong end of the player spectrum.

By at the top you mean every pug, just like what happened with MgT? We had this happen already. There's no need to speculate.

[Hotsforyou]

I agree, i hate the M+ and Titanforging/Warforging system. Make the rewards cosmetic only or something for completing them all at a certain level. More like challenge modes. I hate Diablo and the gear grind and it really pisses me off they brought it to WoW.

[Volitar]

I hope they are gone too. I did every CM on every class both expansions, all realm bests, did sales, even some world first times.

Just boring busywork like the rest of Legion.

[Pua]

By at the top you mean every pug, just like what happened with MgT? We had this happen already. There's no need to speculate.

The game is hugely different in this regard since Magister's Terrace.

Christ.