more tuning for Aff and Destro on the 20th (damage of all abilities reduced by 5%)

[Terryn]

aff is middle of the pack on the 2.667 single target fights, and is only top on one fight, where we can maintain 4 dots with contagion on each boss target. Unless they make dots have demolishing returns on damage like our shards idk what you guys expect to happen.


The thing to keep in mind is things are not NEARLY as retarded over all as they were with 7.2.0 nighthold. We aren't even top single target on harjatan as of right now, and probably won't be on mythic because we still won't be able to maintain the raw st numbers that rogues are putting out now.

[Baconeggcheese]

Unless they make dots have demolishing returns on damage like our shards idk what you guys expect to happen.

The obvious thing to me that I've been suggesting every PTR is to reduce the duration per soul and adjust the base proc rate to compensate. As an example on the extreme end you could make each soul only worth 1 second instead of 5 and then buff up the base proc rate so that it stays the same. This has lots of benefits, it gives souls the same granularity they just swapped destro back to embers for which gets rid of that feast or famine feeling while also making the spec more flexible, and dramatically shifts power away from add deaths which makes the spec tremendously easier to balance.

There are solutions to the issue of the on kill mechanics, its just a matter of implementing something.

[Terryn]

If anything 7.1.5 nighthold was INCREDIBLY balanced. What changes in 7.2.0?

We went from having only a few adds giving souls to fucking everything. ������

[Baconeggcheese]

If anything 7.1.5 nighthold was INCREDIBLY balanced. What changes in 7.2.0?

I wouldn't agree with that at all, the instance was way too ST focused for any chance of that.

Though even if it was perfectly balanced, it would require that the fights allow the specs to be balanced as opposed to the specs being balanced.

We went from having only a few adds giving souls to fucking everything. ������

Are you suggesting having that level of arbitrary inconsistency with how the mechanic works is a good thing?

[evertonbelmontt]

Are you suggesting having that level of arbitrary inconsistency with how the mechanic works is a good thing?

To me sounds like he's saying the spec is tunned well enough and the difference between now and then is the way they designed the raids and if it is OK for afflic to overperform on encounters that brings a lot of adds to kill. Before it seems they thought it was NOT okay and made some adds give souls and some not, and there you have the inconsistency. Now they are okay because the actual ST fights affliction IS middle of the pack, right where it should.

Goroth, Sisters, Maiden, Fallen and KJ show afflic in the middle. I haven't done Maiden's yet but from what I did: Avatar, KJ, Sisters and Goroth are solid encounters to be destro/demon and NOT afflic if you WANT to. If you don't, you can pull your weight just fine.

Desolate I have no idea why afflic is high but I heard in the discord someone talking about padding, so I take it off the picture for now.

It's 5 out of 8 where afflic is middle of the pack (and a bit above that on some), looking boss by boss.

My humble opinion?

That's how it SHOULD be since the begining, but Blizzard was very carefull of it with affliction at the begining of the patch/tier (testing the waters first) and refrained the souls of adds from coming.
As for the actual DPS, now that we have decent amount of diversity and they have the data from 7.2 and 7.2.5, IF they nerf affliction furthermore it's because of crybabies, but that's just me.

I do respect everyone here but criticizing doomsayers and being the complete oposite is also annoying. Let Blizzard decide if we need a nerf or not, don't scream we need it.

[Zelk]

Apparently it's bad that Affliction, THE dot spec is good at multi-dotting. If Blizz are smart they'll nerf wrath duration and reap souls so Aff doesn't get so much bonus dmg from walking near low health mobs.

[satori sartori]

Desolate I have no idea why afflic is high but I heard in the discord someone talking about padding, so I take it off the picture for now.

With absolute corruption you can keep both spirit and corporeal realm dotted forever, from what I understand this is just a heroic and normal thing and it won't be possible in Mythic because you can't voluntarily switch realms for a while in the encounter.
So scratch affliction being #1 in this fight where it matters.

- - - Updated - - -

Apparently it's bad that Affliction, THE dot spec is good at multi-dotting. If Blizz are smart they'll nerf wrath duration and reap souls so Aff doesn't get so much bonus dmg from walking near low health mobs.

They already nerfed wrath by half last patch, I don't understand what reap has to do with walking near low health mobs, are you speaking of soul flame?
There is really only 2 fights, maybe 3 in mythic that benefit this trait in ToS, and its very minimal, nothing close to NH...and it was also nerfed last patch.

At some point it just becomes complete bullshit to keep changing a spec so goddamn much, much more than I've ever witnessed a spec get changed in such a small amount of time, why can't they buff the slacking specs for a change. even if it requires more work?

[kornoth]

I don't understand why people keep saying that aff isn't balanced, even warlocks themselves. Look at the encounters one by one. if you take out the second boss, the council, aff will be in the same spot as destro, so why are you crying against your own class? Aff is supposed to be good at multi target, same as destro ( and destro is better on single target now when there is no dying adds). the balancing is pretty good right now. There is still few specs that are still weak, so they needs some love, like demo warlocks. They are supposed to be top single target and right now they aren't.
So please, stop crying about aff being OP, it's a lie, and do your best to have demo buffed. I hope the devs are not as dumb as some babies that only looks at ranking screwed by a single boss.

[burek]

To me sounds like he's saying the spec is tunned well enough and the difference between now and then is the way they designed the raids and if it is OK for afflic to overperform on encounters that brings a lot of adds to kill. Before it seems they thought it was NOT okay and made some adds give souls and some not, and there you have the inconsistency. Now they are okay because the actual ST fights affliction IS middle of the pack, right where it should.

But fundamentally that is not OK, and middle is not where it should be. If a spec overperforms on something, it should underperform on other things, aka be on the bottom. On what basis do other specs deserve to be below it?

[satori sartori]

aka be on the bottom

No, you want specs to be in the middle pack, that is the ultimate goal, and they should only leave the middle pack when they find themselves in an encounter they overperform.

[Scroff]

No, you want specs to be in the middle pack, that is the ultimate goal, and they should only leave the middle pack when they find themselves in an encounter they overperform.

I guess what you're saying is that the majority of specs should be in a narrow (5%?) band with some outliers above and below depending on how the fight plays to their strengths and weaknesses. I'd like that and I'd also like it if there were different outliers, not always the usual suspects.

[Liarparadox]

, so why are you crying against your own class?...
So please, stop crying about aff being OP, it's a lie, and do your best to have demo buffed.

Locks have gotten so bitchy they like to eat their own. Or rather, they don't even consider a different spec "their own" anymore. Regardless of whether they need to be tuned a bit more, I'd bet anything that if AFF were nerfed into the ground. And i mean into oblivion so that they aren't even viable anymore, other locks would be rejoicing, emotional even over it. They'd hear bird chirping and singing all week long. I think it's gotten to that point; and has been for most of this xpac.

I guess what you're saying is that the majority of specs should be in a narrow (5%?) band with some outliers above and below depending on how the fight plays to their strengths and weaknesses. I'd like that and I'd also like it if there were different outliers, not always the usual suspects.

Yep, 5% would be nice, and the "usual suspects" is a great comment.

I do think that a spec like Aff is just hard to balance because it's dot based. It usually feels either too weak or very very strong from fight to fight. But there are a few knobs they can turn which so far I think they've done a pretty good job of; we'll see in the next day or two what they do.

[Apero]

Locks have gotten so bitchy they like to eat their own. Or rather, they don't even consider a different spec "their own" anymore. Regardless of whether they need to be tuned a bit more.

Yeah, thats what i hate most about legion so far. Blame it on blizzard and their legendarys and artifacts. Always enjoyed playing all 3 speccs depending on which is best for a specific boss. But how is this even possible when you still dont have all bis legendarys or need 9(!!!!) fucking relics (compared to a single weapon before). And i am not even talking about ap...

About the topic: Both aff and destro seem perfectly fine in regards to balance. Cant take people seriously that look at overall performances and start whining "aff op" instead of boss by boss.

[burek]

No, you want specs to be in the middle pack, that is the ultimate goal, and they should only leave the middle pack when they find themselves in an encounter they overperform.

That doesn't make sense. Who is on the bottom then? If there is overperforming and a middle pack, then there is a bottom as well. If the specs who are overperforming are never on the bottom, then there is no balance.

[satori sartori]

That doesn't make sense. Who is on the bottom then? If there is overperforming and a middle pack, then there is a bottom as well. If the specs who are overperforming are never on the bottom, then there is no balance.

Whoever happens to be at the bottom, the idea of everything being middle pack is a paradox, once everything is mid pack then there is no mid pack, until there is one again, the goal is to bring the outliers closer together.

After that, their weaknesses and strengths should be the ones that give them a personality on each encounter performance, as long as those weaknesses and strengths and not very niche there will be balance.

[Eleriol]

Calls for more blanket nerfs would only put affli locks in the same situation as SP's currently are where there single target is god awfull and will still outperform most other classes in multi dot fights.
I honestly dont know how they would go about changing affli to tune the multi dot part down a bit.

And Gaidax you seriosuly need to chill. I clearly remember you complaining about people posting stupid shit on these boards eariler this year and to see how you have gone full mental on people being incredibly disrespectfull and being completley incapable of dealing with people with a different opinion from your own makes me wonder how your still even allowed to post on these boards.

Just take a deep breath and remember no one will ever listen to someone whos toxic.

[Scroff]

I honestly dont know how they would go about changing affli to tune the multi dot part down a bit.

If only there was a mechanic that allowed us to turn a single target fight into a two target fight, then we might not face such troubles with the tuning...

Yeah the implementation wasn't the best but to remove it rather than iterate on it seemed hasty

[Reith]

If only there was a mechanic that allowed us to turn a single target fight into a two target fight, then we might not face such troubles with the tuning...

Yeah the implementation wasn't the best but to remove it rather than iterate on it seemed hasty

Removing things is what they do best. I should know; I'm a Retribution Paladin. Destruction is probably not going to be nerfed. Affliction is likely going to be nerfed a bit. They could go the Shadow Priest route or they could tone down the multi-dot damage a bit, maybe buff Drain Soul slightly or something.

[Uzkin]

ENCOUNTER CHANGES
Demonic Inquisition: Atrigan and Belac clear all dot effects on them upon activating Bone Saw and Fel Squall.
The Desolate Host: The player's dot effects on the Engine of Souls and High Priestess Dejahna are removed if the player changes realm.

These hypothetical changes would be more than enough to nerf Affliction so that it would no longer appear on top of the "Player damage statistics for: All bosses" ranking on WCL. As this is what seems to be causing the largest amount of butthurt on the forums.

[Lulbalance]

ENCOUNTER CHANGES
Demonic Inquisition: Atrigan and Belac clear all dot effects on them upon activating Bone Saw and Fel Squall.
The Desolate Host: The player's dot effects on the Engine of Souls and High Priestess Dejahna are removed if the player changes realm.

These hypothetical changes would be more than enough to nerf Affliction so that it would no longer appear on top of the "Player damage statistics for: All bosses" ranking on WCL. As this is what seems to be causing the largest amount of butthurt on the forums.

I thought this actually happened at first lol, would fix some results imo. I was already mourning my ability to cheese both of those mechs.