Why I think Europeans can't understand conservative US views

[PosPosPos]

Europeans understand American politics just fine

Of course they do, it's just the classic alt-right tactic of handwaving opposition and their justified criticism of US conservatism.

It's just so much easier to simply accuse people of not understanding US conservatism than to argue with actual facts and counterpoints, especially if one lacks scruples and thus is able to ignore blatant intellectual dishonesty.

[Jeezy911]

Well I think both sides can't understand the other's view.

That really is a great graphic, so true in many ways.

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Except there's nothing else to do when dealing with someone who's objectively always wrong. You can point out one thing he has done right since taking PotUS if you disagree.



Pointing out facts and living in non-alternative reality isn't a religion. Although to someone like you, I guess anyone who's not living in alternative reality is living out a religion.

You and I must live in another universe. Facts like the economy doing extremely well? Facts like the collusion between Russia and the president that turned out to be an indictment on Loretta Lynch? Facts like after putting 40 million dollars into a congressional race and still losing by 7 points and spinning it as a win?

[Deleted]

Communism is in NO WAY comparable to Alt-right and Fascism.

Only in that context Communism is extreme left and fascism is extreme right.

Communism was mishandled in the past, but that doesn't mean the ideology is extreme in any way whatsoever.

What is that going to become? A "true scotsman" fallacy?

Where do you see left-wing extremism on this chart? Communism, again? Man, you're really out for blood, aren't you?

You are beginning to become rediculous. Yeah, actually communism is extreme left wing. What do you think it is? Liberurl center?

Yeah, you're really out for blood on that one. Let me help you a bit about what communism really is and what nationalism is.
Posts definitions of both Nationalism and Communism to come to the following dumb conclusion:
[Nationalism] is mostly opposite to Communism.

No, nationalism is not the opposite to Communism. Capitalism is the opposite to communism. If you post definitions, at least read them sometimes. The opposite of Fascism is democracy.

So is Antifa and BLM.

The first is a anti fascist movement, the second is a human right organization. I wonder how you even could remotely make believe they belong to either right or left, while they dont stand for dedicated political opinions? Another stereotype from the right winkins.

Pro-Tip. There is a whole continuum of political opinions where you dont have to be either left or right. Liberal ideas dont have to be right or left. Totalitarian regimes exist both on the extreme right and on the extreme left, and they normally have the same consequences. And you can be a anti fascist without being left.

They're not on the chart because they're a minority.

Oh, but communists are a majority in america? I wonder how you ever managed to build an own political opinion as you dont even understand the most basic concepts.

And no, as much that you want it to be this way, communism is NOT left extremism.

Oh please, dont repeat your lie. I quote wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-left_politics

Far-left politics or extreme-left politics are left-wing politics further on the left of the left-right spectrum than the standard political left.

The term is also used to describe ideologies including Communism[1], Trotskyism, Stalinism and other ideologies or organizations...

Have you done your readings?

You mean reading the right-wing definition of communism where even liberals and democrats are in the same mindset as communists you present in your "infochart"?

You WANT to make the right look bad

I dont have to make them look bad. Donald Trump does that already. He wants to lie like Wladimir Putin but forgets his country still is a democracy with a strong free press, which counters all his lies.

I mean, america is not putin-russia (yet).

you use a horrible rhetoric to achieve it with ridiculous arguments that somehow compare Communism with right-wing extremism.

Which is limited to the definition of communism as left wing extremism and alt right and fascism as right wing extremism.

And i think you are just not able to get beyond your misunderstanding of what you posted. But hey, breitbart shows up in your words.

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I am not sure what you are trying to prove to conservatives using Breitbart as the prime example their party is tainted by right-wing extremism - because in the first place, too many conservatives go by Breitbart and other far-right conspiracy sites as gospel.

So you want to pretend the GOP is literally the alt-right?

I hope not yet. At least was the typical GOP conservative someone who defends democracy and wont use racism and the wish to get rid of free press as a political agenda.

People like Peter Thiel, Donald Trump and Steve Bannon dont want to preserve democracy, they want to define the truth and want to get rid of the freedom of the press. They are infact the enemy of a modern conservatism which is about being a patriot and someone who fights for the values of the liberal democracy america was up to trumps election.

Now, the white house is being infested by right wing populist filth, with fascist billionaires as advisers who actively fight the free press and own propaganda media outlets like breitbart, which value Vladimir Putins way of disinformation, a "strong leader" and a corporate government of a benito mussolini over the constution of america.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Only in that context Communism is extreme left and fascism is extreme right.



What is that going to become? A "true scotsman" fallacy?



You are beginning to become rediculous. Yeah, actually communism is extreme left wing. What do you think it is? Liberurl center?



No, nationalism is not the opposite to Communism. Capitalism is the opposite to communism. If you post definitions, at least read them sometimes. The opposite of Fascism is democracy.



The first is a anti fascist movement, the second is a human right organization. I wonder how you even could remotely make believe they belong to either right or left, while they dont stand for dedicated political opinions? Another stereotype from the right winkins.

Pro-Tip. There is a whole continuum of political opinions where you dont have to be either left or right. Liberal ideas dont have to be right or left. Totalitarian regimes exist both on the extreme right and on the extreme left, and they normally have the same consequences.



Oh, but communists are a majority in america? I wonder how you ever managed to build an own political opinion as you dont even understand the most basic concepts.



Oh please, dont repeat your lie. I quote wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-left_politics





You mean reading the right-wing definition of communism where even liberals and democrats are communists you present in your "infochart"?



I dont have to make to look them bad. Donald Trump does that already.



Which is limited to the definition of communism as left wing extremism and alt right and fascism as right wing extremism.

And i think you are just not able to get beyond your misunderstanding of what you posted. But hey, breitbart shows up in your words. And no, it

I've never read Breitbart - That said, perhaps you've forgotten that the Alt-Right is a nationalist group. You know, which is on the right side of the graph.

But no matter, clearly you live in a weird social echo chamber. Because clearly communism is inherently authoritarian, right? Or nationalism, right?

You can have far-left and far-right movements that do not fall in the authoritarian agenda. It has happened before and it will keep happening.

You clearly hate communism. You're also objectively blinded by Antifa and BLM on the same length that the right wings nuts are blinded by the alt-right and to some extent, neo-nazism.

I think a lot of the left receive bad publicity because of a few bad apples. I think you fit in the category and it's a shame, because we're not all like that. A lot of us actually bother understanding people with opposite ideologies without calling them bigots or trumpkins. Yes, not everyone can be reasoned with, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Freedom and equality goes hand in hand and it's not through obstructionism and hate that we're going to make things better.

And communism is actually great, if applied correctly. I just don't think mankind has the ethics to apply it.

[Deleted]

I've never read Breitbart - That said, perhaps you've forgotten that the Alt-Right is a nationalist group. You know, which is on the right side of the graph.

The alt right is a right wing extremists group, as they use the typical methods of extremists. Find a scape goat (as like the Nazis the Jews, or the Alt-right nowadays the Muslims), use disinformation instead of true facts, attack people personally and not their idea.. All that is extremism.

But no matter, clearly you live in a weird social echo chamber. Because clearly communism is inherently authoritarian, right? Or nationalism, right?

I doubt you even know what the term echo chamber means. An echo chamber is literally a thread or topic where the same opinions get repeated over and over without controversial discussions.

You can have far-left and far-right movements that do not fall in the authoritarian agenda.

There was no democratic communism yet. There was no fascist democracy yet. Those ideologies are inherently autocratic, as Marx talks about the "dictatorship or the proletarians" and as the fascist ideology always wants a strong leader that replaces the people as souvereign.

It has happened before and it will keep happening.

No, it didnt. Socialism which is democratic is social democracy, and not far left in that case.

You clearly hate communism. You're also objectively blinded by Antifa and BLM on the same length that the right wings nuts are blinded by the alt-right and to some extent, neo-nazism.

I hate both communism and fascism. But americas problem currently is surely not communism. It is a fascist corporate government which wants to get rid of the american constitution (free press and checks and balances, as example), made out of billionaires, generals and bank managers.

I think a lot of the left receive bad publicity because of a few bad apples.

Actually communism killed as much people as fascism, see Mao Tse Tungs culture revolution and Stalins cleansenings.

A lot of us actually bother understanding people with opposite ideologies without calling them bigots or trumpkins.

I call them whatever i deem correct. And "Trumpkin" is actually no negative term. "Trumpfuck" would be very bad, as example. Or "Racist scum". But i wont use such terms.

Freedom and equality goes hand in hand and it's not through obstructionism and hate that we're going to make things better.

Actually, hating totalitarism in all its forms is nothing bad. And hating racism and endless greed also is nothing bad.

And communism is actually great, if applied correctly. I just don't think mankind has the ethics to apply it.

No, it never was great, and it never will be great. Same goes to fascism. No matter if it calls itself "Alt Right" or "Putin" or "Trump".

[Zandalarian Paladin]

The alt right is a right wing extremists group, as they use the typical methods of extremists. Find a scape goat (as like the Nazis the Jews, or the Alt-right nowadays the Muslims), use disinformation instead of true facts, attack people personally and not their idea.. All that is extremism.



I doubt you even know what the term echo chamber means. An echo chamber is literally a thread or topic where the same opinions get repeated over and over without controversial discussions.



There was no democratic communism yet. There was no fascist democracy yet. Those idelogogies are inherently autocratic, as Marx talks about the "dictatorship or the proletarians" and as the fascist ideology always wants a strong leader that replaces the people as souvereign.



No, it didnt. Socialism which is democratic is social democracy, and not far left in that case.



I hate both communism and fascism. But americas problem currently is surely not communism. It is a fascist corporate government which wants to get rid of the american constotution, made out of billionaires, generals and bank managers.



Actually communism killed as much people as fascism, see Mao Tse Tungs culture revolution and Stalins cleansenings.



I call them whatever i deem correct. And "Trumpkin" is actually no negativer term. "Trumpfuck" would be very bad, as example. Or "Racist scum". But i wont use such terms.



Actually, hating totalitarism in all its forms is nothing bad. And hating racism and endless greed also is nothing bad.



No, it never was great, and it never will be great. Same goes to fascism. No matter if it calls itself "Alt Right" or "Putin" or "Trump".

See, that's probably the first post you make that actually make sense. I wish it would've been like that since the start. The thing is, I agree with most of what you've said. I "hate" totalitarianism and to some extent authoritarianism. I think nothing is worse than that and, as you say, communism felt in that trap in the past. Democratic socialism is much more interesting and fair in a lot of ways.

I still disagree on some points though, as I do think that groups like BLM (which seeks to segregate themselves) and Antifa (Which seeks to work toward violent anarchism) are as dangerous as the alt-right (white nationalists) and neo-nazi (radical white nationalists).

As to my remark toward echo chamber, it is the fact that you take a very popularized view of the current groupthink that is strongly anti-right.

[Slant]

I’ve been reading these forums for years now, and a recent post by Skroe made a light bulb go off in my head about why the European crowd here can’t understand US policy. What the non-US posters don’t understand is that the United States is not one huge, homogenous swath of land. We are divided into 50 states, 3,144 counties, and 36,011 municipalities. The US constitution defines the role, responsibility, and limitations of the Federal Government as follows:

1) Defense, war prosecution, peace, foreign relations, foreign commerce, and interstate commerce;
2) The protection of citizens’ constitutional rights (e.g the Bill of Rights) and ensuring that slavery remains illegal;
3) Establishing federal courts inferior to the SCOTUS;
4) Copyright protection;
5) Coining money;
6) Establishing post offices and post roads;
7) Establishing a national set of universal weights and measures;
8 ) Taxation needed to raise revenue to perform these essential functions. (It’s important to note, that this is why constitutional conservatives are always pushing for lower taxes. Any Federal Income Tax dollar that goes to something not on this list is a violation of the US Constitution.)

These are the only responsibilities that the Federal Government has jurisdiction over. The 10th amendment to the Constitution states that anything and everything that doesn’t fall into one of the sections above is the responsibility of the State, County, Municipality, or Individual. This includes things like Education, Healthcare, Policing, Utilities, and Social Services. After all, the citizens of Hartford County Connecticut know what they need for utilities better than some elected official from Fargo, North Dakota. The Mayor of New York City understands the challenges his city faces more than an Alderman from Newnan, Georgia. Allow me to be clear about one thing here… as a conservative, I do believe it is our duty as citizens to support those who cannot support themselves, to educate our youth, to keep our streets safe, and to allow everyone the same opportunity for personal growth and fulfillment in life. I do not, however, believe that any of these things are the responsibility of the Federal Government.

I’m going to use this as a bit of a thought experiment. Right now, there are a few similarities between the original goal of the US Federal Government and the current EU. Imagine if right now, you were paying 25-40% of your take home income to the EU in addition to your current national and municipal income tax. Would you be OK with that? Would you care if your taxes went to support social programs in a completely different country? Would you care if the EU passed down requirements that your local elementary schools needed to follow? In effect, this is what the US is dealing with right now. Roughly 50% of us feel that the Federal Government needs to go back to the 8 responsibilities above, and leave the rest of it up to the States and Towns.

If you think we haven't undestood the US and how it functions, you may be mistaken. We simply think it's rubbish. And apparently you do not understand how the EU works. We already pay a lot of money into the EU. And the EU is already having a lot of influence on a national level. When the EU sponsors some farmer's sheep diet in England, it is paid in part by every other European. Same with some olive farmer in Italy or Spain.

We know how federalism works. Some of us have been doing it for centuries by now, just like the US has.

It's a bit sad to see your OP. I think it's not as much that Europeans don't understand the US, and how could it, since you borrowed the ideas on how to build your country from Europe to begin with. It's more that people like you do not accept the possibility that people outside your bubble simply think you're doing it wrong.

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Well I think both sides can't understand the other's view.

How American. No, this isn't about left or right. This is about rubbish ideas being rubbish. Let's begin by even having the silly split about abortions, about liberal gun regulation in the face of the most blatant statistics, about the lack of understanding of basic principles like free speech, Governments, balance of power, about a political system that encourages a split in society and about the same system systematically favouring big money and corporations over the citizens that give the political system its authority and power, about lobbyism, about a Government that has given so little care about education that basic education and general knowledge, let alone common sense, are exceptions rather than the norm. Although, this is a bit unfair. Americans are knowledgeable and have common sense... about everything American. Throw them into an Environment that isn't Canada, the USA or Tijuana, Mexico, and they're hopelessly lost.

No, this isn't about left or right at all. Especially not the kinds that you have quoted in your picture. Those are American concepts.

[Shadee]

If you think we haven't undestood the US and how it functions, you may be mistaken. We simply think it's rubbish. And apparently you do not understand how the EU works. We already pay a lot of money into the EU. And the EU is already having a lot of influence on a national level. When the EU sponsors some farmer's sheep diet in England, it is paid in part by every other European. Same with some olive farmer in Italy or Spain.

We know how federalism works. Some of us have been doing it for centuries by now, just like the US has.

It's a bit sad to see your OP. I think it's not as much that Europeans don't understand the US, and how could it, since you borrowed the ideas on how to build your country from Europe to begin with. It's more that people like you do not accept the possibility that people outside your bubble simply think you're doing it wrong.

You can think we're doing it wrong all you want but you should mind your own business about it. We'll do our thing, seems to be working out pretty well for us.

[Slant]

that really is a great info-graphic. It is so true.

It's not, now that I glanced over it. It's not even true for American "left vs. right" debates. It's just someone trying to dumb it down for children, really. What do republicans call Clinton? Killary? Warmonger? Ever seen a dove called Killary? What a load of hose manure that infographic is...

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You can think we're doing it wrong all you want but you should mind your own business about it. We'll do our thing, seems to be working out pretty well for us.

We are minding our business about it. But Americans keep asking for confirmation and then react badly when they don't get it. Don't ask for our opinion if you don't want to hear it.

[GreenJesus]

It's not, now that I glanced over it. It's not even true for American "left vs. right" debates. It's just someone trying to dumb it down for children, really. What do republicans call Clinton? Killary? Warmonger? Ever seen a dove called Killary? What a load of hose manure that infographic is...

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We are minding our business about it. But Americans keep asking for confirmation and then react badly when they don't get it. Don't ask for our opinion if you don't want to hear it.

What does Clinton have to do with that info-graphic?? "but Hillary" you guys love to use that term.

[Slant]

What does Clinton have to do with that info-graphic?? "but Hillary" you guys love to use that term.

Us? Who's "us"? It's just one example... pick any other random example, are you telling me that republicans raise their kids by instilling fear in them? Since when is that republican? Rofl... as if.

[Masark]

are you telling me that republicans raise their kids by instilling fear in them?

Yes, by way of religion and corporal punishment.

[PosPosPos]

So you want to pretend the GOP is literally the alt-right?

I hope not yet. At least was the typical GOP conservative someone who defends democracy and wont use racism and the wish to get rid of free press as a political agenda.

People like Peter Thiel, Donald Trump and Steve Bannon dont want to preserve democracy, they want to define the truth and want to get rid of the freedom of the press. They are infact the enemy of a modern conservatism which is about being a patriot and someone who fights for the values of the liberal democracy america was up to trumps election.

Now, the white house is being infested by right wing populist filth, with fascist billionaires as advisers who actively fight the free press and own propaganda media outlets like breitbart, which value Vladimir Putins way of disinformation, a "strong leader" and a corporate government of a benito mussolini over the constution of america.

Good luck, you will sorely need it because you, like Skroe, belong to this tiny 20% of GOP who don't feed the demagogue.

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You and I must live in another universe. Facts like the economy doing extremely well?

The economy is doing well because of Obama's good internal governance and policies, Trump hasn't yet put in any economic policies that would show any effects today, you know that right?

Facts like the collusion between Russia and the president that turned out to be an indictment on Loretta Lynch?

Right, Watergate resolved in 100 days....oh wait, that only happened in your alternative reality.

Facts like after putting 40 million dollars into a congressional race and still losing by 7 points and spinning it as a win?

Facts like winning without the popular vote? Wut?

Arguing with Trumpets is like arguing with made up reality, there's no substance whatsoever and they just keep making up story after story. To ignore list you go.

[Luckx]

Some Europeans countries are simmiliar to America, some different.

I.e. Switzerland,Belgium and Nederlands legalized euthanasia which most western and non-western countries including the ones who are hostile to each other equally didnt.

[Jeezy911]

Good luck, you will sorely need it because you, like Skroe, belong to this tiny 20% of GOP who don't feed the demagogue.

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The economy is doing well because of Obama's good internal governance and policies, Trump hasn't yet put in any economic policies that would show any effects today, you know that right?



Right, Watergate resolved in 100 days....oh wait, that only happened in your alternative reality.




Facts like winning without the popular vote? Wut?

Arguing with Trumpets is like arguing with made up reality, there's no substance whatsoever and they just keep making up story after story. To ignore list you go.

The economy started picking up in January, what changed in January? Thanks Obama

Keep waiting on that Russian connection, Trump will be impeached any day now just keep waiting.

The US uses a process call the Electoral College, you can look up the process using a thing called google. It has been the system used for many years and only becomes an issue when you lose. All politicians are able to look up the rules of the system prior to running for an election as I am sure Hillary Clinton did. If we used what's called "The Popular vote" to decide our elections, the campaign strategy would be much different for both sides. Most of the time would be spend in our around larger cities with higher population density like New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago. I hope this helps you understand.

[Vertigo X]

You and other conservatives should refrain from circlejerking over everything Trump does as infallible if you are concerned about others painting conservatives in broad strokes that they live in an echo chamber.

TIL I've been circlejerking Trump just because I'm conservative (which is ironic because Trump isn't really conservative). Way to prove my initial point bud.

You've effectively mashed all us conservatives together into what you think we all believe then decided our opinion is wrong. That's exactly why this is the most divisive our country has ever been, in my opinion.

[downnola]

I'm pretty sure the civil war was the most divisive era of U.S. history. It doesn't get any more divisive than succession.

[Vertigo X]

I'm pretty sure the civil war was the most divisive era of U.S. history. It doesn't get any more divisive than succession.

Not sure that was really the portion of what I was saying that was important but sure I'll give it to you.

[downnola]

Not sure that was really the portion of what I was saying that was important but sure I'll give it to you.

If the logical conclusion of your sentence is off, there's a good chance the rest might be flawed too. No offense.

[Vertigo X]

If the logical conclusion of your sentence is off, there's a good chance the rest might be flawed too. No offense.

I'm not going to argue the semantics of an opinion with you though. It's an opinion and therefore can't be right or wrong inherently. It doesn't detract from the rest of the statement. If I had said "in our lifetimes" does that mean all of a sudden everything I said before it is more in line with your opinion?