ToS: Legendaries and Talents per Boss (MM)

[Turtel]

This is not a guide. These are my opinions based on what I've seen from videos alone, and I posted it because I'd like to see what other people's opinions are. I'd greatly appreciate if people didn't make proclaimations about my ignorance/intelligence if their opinion differs from mine. I'd prefer they just shared their reasons for why their opinion differed.

Firstly, just a point about Gloves vs Boots on single target. Both Boots+2pcT19+4PcT20 and Gloves+4pcT20 sim almost identical to each other according to both Effinhunter's sims and Azortharion's sims. However, there are two factors I think will favour the Gloves:

1. The Gloves allow 50% of your Aimed Shots to be cast while moving. This is not factored in the sims, and definitely has a positive impact on DPS, potentially significant (depending on how well you play with the gloves).

2. The sims (at least in Effinhunter's sims, since he's the only one who provided the simcraft source) were done using T19 having the same ilvl as ToS gear, when in reality your T19 gear is likely to be lower (purely due to simple statistics: gear from ToS drops at a higher baseline ilvl than T19, therefore will have a higher ilvl on average). This means the 2pcT19+4PcT20 sims are likely overestimating the benefit that most people will get from it, although the extent of overestimation would of course depend on how lucky you got with T19.

For these reasons, I conclude that the Gloves+4pcT20 are superior to Boots+2pcT19+4pcT20 for single target. However, it might be worth using the Boots instead of the Gloves for single target initially since you'd probably want to upgrade the Boots first (I explain this later).

Note: Every time the Gloves are used, the assumption is just 4pcT20, everywhere else you would use 2pcT19+4pcT20. Mainly because if you're not using the Gloves, that means it's an AoE/cleave fight (Trueshot is a powerful AoE/cleave cooldown, making 2pcT19 more powerful on these fights).

Goroth
Legendaries: Ring/Gloves
Talents: True Aim/Patient Sniper/Crows/Trick Shot
Reasons:
This appears to be a pure single target fight.

Demonic Inquisition
Legendaries: Boots/Gloves
Talents: Lock n Load/Patient Sniper/Crows/Trick Shot
Reasons:
This one I'm not sure about. There are some phases where the two bosses must be tanked apart (which would favour a single target setup), and then there are some phases where they can be tanked together (which would favour cleave setups). Whether a pure single target setup or a cleave setup is better would depend on how often the bosses can be kept together.

Update: When I did the fight with my guild, the bosses were kept apart the entire time so there was no opportunity to cleave at all. If this is the optimum strategy then this fight is essentially entirely single target. However, you do still have to target switch between the bosses very often (as well as enter the chamber to remove torment) which means True Aim is probably not optimum (making the Ring useless). The only good single target legendaries left would be Boots/Gloves.

It's possible that True Aim might still be good (since you can stick to one boss most of the time if you time it right), in which case Ring/Gloves would be the best.

Harjatan
Legendaries: Boots/Belt
Talents: Lock n Load/Explosive Shot/Volley/Trick Shot
Reasons:
There are constant add spawns, which favour the burst AoE build of Explosive Shot/Piercing Shot.

Update: When I did this fight with my guild it seemed like the adds fixated on random players, so they never really clumped up enough to be cleaved effectively so I've chosen to use Trick Shot instead of Piercing Shot here (to maximise damage on the specific add you're going after, as well as the boss).

Mistress Sassz'ine
Legendaries: Boots/Belt
Talents: Lock n Load/Explosive Shot/Volley/Piercing Shot
Reasons:
There are constant add spawns that seem to clump together, which favour Explosive Shot/Piercing Shot.

Sisters of the Moon
Legendaries: Ring/Gloves
Talents: True Aim/Patient Sniper/Crows/Trick Shot
Reasons:
There are multiple bosses, but you'll only face one at a time as far as I can see. This means a single target setup should work best.

The Desolate Host
Legendaries: Boots/Belt
Talents: Lock n Load/Patient Sniper/Volley/Trick Shot
Reasons:
It looks like you'll almost always have some adds up, but a lot of them will be almost immune to damage, so you can't just AoE them all down, which means Explosive Shot/Piercing Shot will lose some value. However, this plays right into the benefit of the belt, which allows you to funnel your AoE damage into single target Aimed Shot damage, allowing you to choose which target the damage is going to. Trick Shot also means your Aimed Shots will still be doing good AoE damage too though, with the ricochets, but you won't be able to use True Aim because of this.

Maiden of Vigilance
Legendaries: Ring/Gloves
Talents: True Aim/Patient Sniper/Crows/Trick Shot
Reasons:
Pure single target fight.

Fallen Avatar
Legendaries: Ring/Gloves
Talents: True Aim/Patient Sniper/Crows/Trick Shot
Reasons:
Mostly pure single target fight. There is an add that stays alive for a very long time, but you don't want to damage the add until it gains the absorb shield, in which case you'd want to single target it down.

It might be possible to argue that the Boots/Gloves or Boots/Ring are the better choice if you are unable to get Trueshot to come off cooldown for each absorb shield phase (since these are a DPS race of sorts). But then again, the last phase is pure single target and is also a DPS race, which would favour Ring/Gloves. It just depends on what your group is having trouble with (removing the absorb shield in time, or killing the boss in time), although I'm guessing removing the absorb shield is a job hunters would be given.

Kil'jaeden
Legendaries: Boots/Gloves
Talents: Lock n Load/Patient Sniper/Crows/Trick Shot
Reasons:
This seems to be a mostly single target fight. There are lots of adds, but they are always far apart so you never get to cleave them (ruling out Explosive/Piercing Shot). Kil'Jaeden also periodically becomes immune to damage, so (along with the constant adds which you have to switch to), True Aim doesn't seem viable as you'd constantly lose the stacks (thus the Ring would not be a viable legendary either).

Summary
There are only four legendaries used. They are:
1. Gloves on 6 bosses.
2. Boots on 5 bosses.
3. Ring on 4 bosses.
4. Belt on 3 bosses.
(Total is 18 since you use 2 legendaries per boss)

However, if you upgrade the Boots first, you can reasonably use them for single target instead of the Gloves, which results in the Boots being used for every single fight (while the Gloves would only be used on two fights: Kil'jaeden and Demonic Inquisition). This means the ideal order to upgrade the legendaries would appear to be:
1. Boots
2. Ring
3. Belt
4. Gloves

One important point to make would be that in order for Boots+2pcT19+4pcT20 to be better than Gloves+4pcT20 on single target, you'd need to have two decent T19 pieces. If you don't, then you'd want to upgrade the Gloves second (after the Boots), since you'd still want to use the Gloves for 5/9 fights, even after you've upgraded the Boots. You'd also probably upgrade the Gloves second if you were interested in your DPS on Kil'Jaeden (since it'd be logical to assume that this is the hardest boss).

Another point might be that you could end up taking a while to get 4 pieces of T20. This means you'd be stuck with 4pcT19+2pcT20 when using the Boots or 2pcT19+2pcT20 when using the Gloves (since 2pcT20 is much better than 4pcT19, especially when used with the Gloves). This should make the Boots more powerful relative to the Gloves (compared to when using 4pcT20), since the 4pcT19 makes Trueshot more powerful, which in turn benefits the Boots. In other words, this point doesn't really change anything, it just gives even more of a reason to upgrade the Boots first.

Regarding Belt vs Ring: The Belt is much better itemised than the Ring (which is actually significantly underbudgeted for it's ilvl) which means you'll gain significantly more stats when you upgrade the Belt than when you upgrade the Ring, so it could be better to upgrade the Belt first, although you'd never use the Belt at the same time you were using the Ring.

So these are my opinions. Does anyone have their own opinion? Have I understood the mechanics of each boss accurately? Perhaps one of the other 8 legendaries could have some quirk that makes them useful in a particular fight?

[Offensive]

Thank you for putting this guide together.

Much appreciated

1 question tho, which ring are you talking about ? The new one ?

[Dismembered]

Thank you for putting this guide together.

Much appreciated

1 question tho, which ring are you talking about ? The new one ?

Must be the new ring since the old one is more of an m+ aoe thing, or?

[Turtel]

Thank you for putting this guide together.

Much appreciated

1 question tho, which ring are you talking about ? The new one ?

Yes, whenever I mention a ring it's the new Soul of the Huntmaster legendary. Zevrim's Hunger is basically useless if you have the Belt/Boots. It was my first legendary and I never found a single instance where I would use it over the Belt/Boots, and it was made even worse with patch 7.1.5 (due to the Marked Shot damage nerf).

Also this wasn't intended to be a guide . I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter, and hopefully get some other peoples opinions. I guess once I started adding subtitles and summaries, it sort of did turn into a guide.

[Effinhunter]

One of the things I tried to do in the tier sims was include dungeon sets at 915 so we can see how much the tier effect basically adds. To figure out the line where t19 is uselesss in 2 pc, you need to figure out the contibutions of the 2 pieces you will replace them with. Most mythic raiders who have been clearing for a while have probably gotten lucky on at least 2/6 pieces of T19. So, I felt it was reasonable to imclude 2 915 t19 pieces. Some of our hunters have multiple 920+, which is infuriating when you have bad luck. But, plenty of hunters out there have even better setups than 2 pc 915+ t19.

P.S. good information here.

[scorpor]

Great information, overall I have pretty much the same thoughts.

One question though, why do you choose to play exploshot/piercing shot on those cleave fights you mentioned when you have the belt? Wouldn't patient/trickshot work out better?

[Nairesha]

Great information, overall I have pretty much the same thoughts.

One question though, why do you choose to play exploshot/piercing shot on those cleave fights you mentioned when you have the belt? Wouldn't patient/trickshot work out better?

In general with the recent change in damage, the belt + boots combo seems to do extremely well in ST and Multi - only the new ring is possibly worth it on ST.
But then again it all comes down to the rest of your gear as well.

[scorpor]

In general with the recent change in damage, the belt + boots combo seems to do extremely well in ST and Multi - only the new ring is possibly worth it on ST.
But then again it all comes down to the rest of your gear as well.

Yes, but why use piercing/explosive shot instead of patient/trickshot if you HAVE belt and boots?

[Dismembered]

Wouldn't it be better to upgrade Prydaz first because it works like a nice stat stick? Because the proccs etc. from the legendaries like boots didn't upgrade but only the stats right?

[B]
However, if you upgrade the Boots first, you can reasonably use them for single target instead of the Gloves, which results in the Boots being used for every single fight (while the Gloves would only be used on one fight: Kil'Jaeden). This means the ideal order to upgrade the legendaries would appear to be:
1. Boots
2. Belt
3. Ring
4. Gloves

[Turtel]

One of the things I tried to do in the tier sims was include dungeon sets at 915 so we can see how much the tier effect basically adds. To figure out the line where t19 is uselesss in 2 pc, you need to figure out the contibutions of the 2 pieces you will replace them with. Most mythic raiders who have been clearing for a while have probably gotten lucky on at least 2/6 pieces of T19. So, I felt it was reasonable to imclude 2 915 t19 pieces. Some of our hunters have multiple 920+, which is infuriating when you have bad luck. But, plenty of hunters out there have even better setups than 2 pc 915+ t19.

P.S. good information here.

Yes this is one of those things where everyone will be in a different situation, so people are pretty much just going to have to sim themselves to really know for sure.

However, this whole 2pcT19+4pcT20 vs 4pcT20 business was mainly just to compare the Boots to the Gloves in single target (remember, you'll always be using the Ring as your other legendary for single target, except in heavy target switching cases). In AoE, there's really not much of a question since the best legendaries are Boots/Belt which don't take up tier slots and in those situations the 2pcT19 bonus is very strong. For the single target case, the exact ilvls you have for T19 were really a secondary point to the main one that the Gloves allow 50% of your Aimed Shots to be cast while moving. I guess it might matter if the Boots are so much ahead of the Gloves in single target (i.e. you have two pieces of T19 that are much better than the drops you've gotten from ToS) that the extra mobility from the Gloves is not enough to offset the extra DPS of the Boots, although this effect is pretty hard to quantify (and heavily depends on the exact movement requirements of the mechanics).

Great information, overall I have pretty much the same thoughts.

One question though, why do you choose to play exploshot/piercing shot on those cleave fights you mentioned when you have the belt? Wouldn't patient/trickshot work out better?

You're right, thanks for pointing this out. My reasoning was based around the statement in the Icy Veins guide that Piercing Shot was close to Trick Shot in single target (and thus would pull ahead if it could cleave), but I realise now this was specifically stated for when you did not have the belt. With the belt, Trick Shot is better in sustained AoE, and this should especially be true now with the T20 bonuses that significantly boost Aimed Shot damage. The niche of Piercing Shot is relegated to burst AoE situations, which I think should still be the case for Harjatan and Mistress Sassz'ine with their adds. In fact I don't think there is any sustained AoE at all in ToS, but I haven't had a chance to try out the raid yet, so I could be wrong. Having said that, I'm now more convinced that Trick Shot is the way to go for the Demonic Inquisition if you have the Belt though.

Just a side note, I used the belt with Piercing because it seemed to still be the best AoE legendary even without the ricochet effect from Trick Shot (most of the highest ranking Gul'dan kills with Piercing Shot used the Boots/Belt combo).

Wouldn't it be better to upgrade Prydaz first because it works like a nice stat stick? Because the proccs etc. from the legendaries like boots didn't upgrade but only the stats right?

I didn't use Prydaz at all in any of the bosses, so upgrading it wouldn't help at all. But if you'll be using Prydaz more than you'll be using the Boots/Belt/Gloves/Ring, then yes it could be a good idea to upgrade it first .

[Nairesha]

Yes, but why use piercing/explosive shot instead of patient/trickshot if you HAVE belt and boots?

I don't. And I love Patient/Trickshot anytime over MEME build

[Spiralphoenix]

Really hoped I'd have more of these actually compelling legendaries by this tier. Still just have boots out of those 4. Would make things more interesting to have the option of switching them out by fight. Such a stupid system. But I guess that's what I get for not burning myself out doing every legendary eligible content in existence.

Nice list, seems like reasonable suggestions.

[Deleted]

Thanks for this post, good info pre me going into ToS.

Can anyone do same for BM maybe, specifically for the crit/owtp build, i'm still juggling 7 leggos - only have head, neck, shoulders, legs, boots, old ring and trinket,...kinda going shoulders + ?? other atm.

[Holovik]

Really hoped I'd have more of these actually compelling legendaries by this tier. Still just have boots out of those 4. Would make things more interesting to have the option of switching them out by fight. Such a stupid system. But I guess that's what I get for not burning myself out doing every legendary eligible content in existence.

Nice list, seems like reasonable suggestions.

Seems your burnout threshold is quite low. I raid with a recurring PUG for about 2 hours once a week and do my emissaries and one weekly m+ for the cache and I have 9 legendaries. That being said, I still don't have the MM belt. There are two possible legendaries for me to get now with MM lot spec, sephuz or belt. Can't wait to get my sephuz next week

[Amareen]

Can we have the same topic for Beast mastery spec too ? i'll apreciate it

[Spiralphoenix]

Seems your burnout threshold is quite low. I raid with a recurring PUG for about 2 hours once a week and do my emissaries and one weekly m+ for the cache and I have 9 legendaries. That being said, I still don't have the MM belt. There are two possible legendaries for me to get now with MM lot spec, sephuz or belt. Can't wait to get my sephuz next week

I did the same consistently (with guild raid, not a pug, not that that matters) starting a month or so into legion, except for the past month-ish or so I took a break. We just do normal/heroic, typically normal and heroic until normal doesn't feel worthwhile anymore, then just heroic. Doesn't mean everyone that has done that will have 9 at this point. Weekly m+ and emissaries definitely didn't feel worth my time anymore that deep into Heroic NH farm status. It esp. doesn't help that artifact power, pretty much the only thing that was left that was worthwhile from world quests (or at least felt worthwhile), no longer is, as both my MM and BM are 52 and the ratio of time spent versus stat gain is going up exponentially by the day.

I have mm boots, mm ring (marked shot one), healing pants, healing helm, kj trinket, BM/SV bracers.

[PBitt]

I feel boots are a pretty solid 'second best' option currently in all situations. Belt is king for aoe and ring for ST. If you have all of those I think it renders the gloves not very useful in any situation atm in raids, (other than as a placeholder until you get the ring). Especially when combined with 2pc t19, which most people will have for a while yet, the boots hold a lot of value. Perhaps down the road when people get better ST trinkets than CoF and 2pc t19 the gloves will come out ahead of boots in ST. But having the extra trueshots, espeically at crucial burst times, is very strong for progression. Plus gloves hog a damn tier slot.

[Holovik]

I did the same consistently (with guild raid, not a pug, not that that matters) starting a month or so into legion, except for the past month-ish or so I took a break. We just do normal/heroic, typically normal and heroic until normal doesn't feel worthwhile anymore, then just heroic. Doesn't mean everyone that has done that will have 9 at this point. Weekly m+ and emissaries definitely didn't feel worth my time anymore that deep into Heroic NH farm status. It esp. doesn't help that artifact power, pretty much the only thing that was left that was worthwhile from world quests (or at least felt worthwhile), no longer is, as both my MM and BM are 52 and the ratio of time spent versus stat gain is going up exponentially by the day.

I have mm boots, mm ring (marked shot one), healing pants, healing helm, kj trinket, BM/SV bracers.

That's why you're not getting legendaries. I have gotten 1 of my legendaries from an actual instance drop. The other 8 have all been broken shore caches or emissary caches. They are 100% worth your time if your goal is legendaries. The AP and rep are just side benefits.

[Galaar]

I upgraded the boots first since both AOE and ST used them and then got the Huntmaster ring as a 970. My big issue right now is my 2pc T19+ 2pc T20 use the gloves so until I get more tier pieces I'm stuck not using the gloves. So belt will be upped first and then gloves.

[Spiralphoenix]

That's why you're not getting legendaries. I have gotten 1 of my legendaries from an actual instance drop. The other 8 have all been broken shore caches or emissary caches. They are 100% worth your time if your goal is legendaries. The AP and rep are just side benefits.

OK cool. And you're right, obviously those things contribute a lot towards getting a legendary. My point is it doesn't feel worth the time when the only thing you're getting is another hidden tick towards a legendary. It's clear that you still have a level of dedication to the game that I don't anymore - but when things don't feel rewarding anymore, I just don't do them. There used to be other benefits to doing these things that made me not think to myself while flying from wq to wq - "why the fuck am I still doing these?".

Legendaries are basically like major glyphs, or pseudo talents. In the past you typically didn't have to grind meaningless content that has long since lost any meaningful reward for a shot at using your other talents or major glyphs. It's just frustrating is all I'm getting at. And especially at this point in the game, it doesn't feel like core gameplay altering aspects of my class should be unavailable to me just because I'm unlucky and not willing to grind. I don't get to try out on the move aimed shot or true aim + LnL (or, prior to the recent patch, 2 DB/DF charges) because I didn't do some world quests. It's not like I'm alone in hating the legendary system. They should have always been just utility effects, or heavily weighted towards getting the actual interesting ones first.