What does vengeance do better compared to other tanks?

[Vampiregenesis]

I have two tanks , a dh and a dk , i have tanked mythic nh and tons of mythic+ with both of them at high key lvls , i have to admit that dk is leagues above dh , lets see why:

Dk pros compared to Dh

1. DK has much better trash management , Dh has no tools to control chaotic situations while dk can just use his blood boil or gorefiend grasp and get everything under control asap , blood boil is MUCH stronger at sustaining aggro compared to sigil of flame or glaive , literally this hurts a lot at mythic+ , sometimes someone ninja pulls or trash are spread and there is no way to take control of all of it fast as dh while as dk its very easy.

2. DK has a combat ress while dh has not

3. Dk has death grip which is extremely usefull on some occasions

4. Dk has better cooldowns and mitigation , i feel immortal with my dk , i tanked a +10 hov stone this reset after healer left the group before first boss and finished it without dieing very easily at 905 ilvl , literally someone even pulled the trash at hyrja and had to tank both the boss and trash and managed to do it without healer. I cant do something like this with my Dh , his cooldowns and mitigation are not weak by any means but they are leagues below dk ones and they are also fewer.

Dh pros compared to dk

1. Dh has better dps than dk , i pull around 500k ST and alot more even up to 900k aoe with my dh , this is alot of dps and im only 903ilvl without a 2nd legendary and i use stamina and versatility trinkets and stamina flask , this is all thanks to spirit bomb buff and its one of the only advantages dh probably have compared to other tanks and they try to take this away now which is stupid because in that case there is no reason to play a dh anymore. Dk can still pull alot of dps with rune weapon and appropriate trinkets/legendaries.

2. Dh has a cc , imprison can make a difference but that happens rarely , its useless on raids and marginally usefull on dungeons.


Overall , i think utility wise dh is very weak but i can only compare him to my dk , i dont know anything about other tanks , his dps is the only thing that makes him shine and when they take this away , it will be pointless to play a dh tank.

[Invisibelf]

My Dh solos things far beyond what her Ilvl would indicate. I just went in and smashed normal CA with a sub 900 Ilvl, and it's endlessly amusing. So solo content wise I put DH ahead. As you also said dps wise Dh wins again.

For Mythic+ speed is an important factor, and the DH has incredible movement with glide/double jump/infernal strike, and so on. This means that unlike DK's one movement skill on a lengthy cd DH'ers are not left behind while trying to go through Mythic+. It's also helpful for kiting out of the bad stuff too.

CC for days. Aoe silence, Aoe Fear, (if horde) another Aoe silence, and normal interrupt. Also a banish cc as well.

A DH also has 2 shots of spikes, and wards which increase their agility on a 30 second cd. In addition they can drop the damage enemies are dealing to them by 40%, and talent it to spread, and in addition with spirit bomb they heal for all the damage.

Also as you stated the aoe you can put out is pretty intense.

Overall the Dh feels more fluid, and plays really smoothly while also having good damage mobility, and soloing potential.

DK's have the best class campaign by far though.

[Tech614]

I stopped reading at #1.

Sigils provide literally the best control of any tank spec.

That's not to say you might not have a point, I'll never know because it's not worth reading a post when the first point is blatantly wrong.

[A dot Ham]

I never understand threads like these.

It sounds like someone has a hard on for DKs... which begs the question why you aren't simply playing a DK.

You offer no solutions or improvements or ideas... you just complain how X does better than Y. That's not interesting, that's not helpful.

"Roll a DK." - end thread

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

DKs are in a great spot right now, with great synergy between their self-heals that give them amazing survivability. Their weaknesses continue to be damage and mobility.

DHs also have some nice synergy now between Spirit Bomb, Soul Cleave, and Soul Barrier/Demonic Infusion. While their survivability may not be quite on par with DKs, they are much more mobile and will continue to be top tier damage even after the June 20 tuning pass.

- - - Updated - - -

i feel immortal with my dk , i tanked a +10 hov stone this reset after healer left the group before first boss and finished it without dieing very easily at 905 ilvl , literally someone even pulled the trash at hyrja and had to tank both the boss and trash and managed to do it without healer. I cant do something like this with my Dh , his cooldowns and mitigation are not weak by any means but they are leagues below dk ones and they are also fewer.

Did you miss the thread from the VDH who solo'd +10 CoS? At least you had some DPS with you.

[Deleted]

Vengeance has lots of damage reduction functionalities which BDK doesn't have.

Blood has 16% mitigation from bone shield
Veng has 20% passive reduction

Blood has shield from mastery
Vengeance has 30-40% phys dmg reduction from spikes

and this can move on for quite a while

Vengeance great potency is metamorphosis. It grants 50-60% hp/ 100% armor/ 50% leech (talented) and is a tank in GOD mod form.

I have played bear 910 ilvl, blood dk 890 and veng 890 and I love veng most. Super fun and self sustain is on par if not greater than blood DK

and btw I own any other tank in arena because it's a tank class so well designed around 1v1 combat.

[DeuZWw]

Well. DKs are pretty good.

DHs do receive more damage and have trouble with survivability, even more now with all these phys damage fights on ToS. Still, we can do all content, and i do like how our spec plays. i only wish we had a little more survivability.

have to say tho. i think DHs are better than DKs on M+. our AoE + Sigil + Best Mobility provides the best setup to complete dungeons and avoid stuff.

If i had to tell where we do better, i would go for our superior mobility, we can literally ignore knockbacks using glide. have heroic leaps on low cooldowns.

i am unsure if anyone else have, but we also have a targeted AoE Silence and our regular Silence is Ranged.


And even with some problems with survivability, when we do have our cds up, we are unstopabble. Metamorphosis and Fiery Brand are both strong as hell. whenever those two are up i'm 100% sure i'm not gonna die. Sadly we can't rely on that and it creates alot of spikes on our health for when we don't have those and our DS is on cooldown.

[Grobovshik]

Nothing.
/10char

Oh wait.

I own any other tank in arena because it's a tank class so well designed around 1v1 combat.

This. So useful!

[Killface1]

We do the most damage out of any tank.

We are the least survivable out of any tank.

In mythic +, if you're having aggro issues right now as vengence, its because you're doing something terribly horribly wrong, not because of the spec. We are the absolute king of mythic + right now.

[yarafx1]

DH's have great crowd control great DR for physical/magic and great dps saying dk's are better are a joke. For bursting last week I will agree a DK was prefered for the artifact's ability to grant leech but over all dh>dks.

Also Chain pull sigil > mass grip because of shorter cd. Also aoe silence, and stun.

Tanking a hov 10 with out a healer isn't hard. Sounds like you aren't playing the class right or stat'd properly if you're having issues with dr for physical attacks bc that's where dhs excel.

[Ayegon]

Normally I would not respond to this question in a lengthy manner but I have a vested interest in comparing the tanks side by side across all the different categories of game-play, so here is my take on how the DH and DK stack up against each other.

I have been playing a Vengeance DH since the day they came out on live. I have cleared every mythic-level raiding boss while it was current and maintained a fairly high M+ score across the expansion. My co-tank for mythic is a Death Knight and has been since my first attempts on Nythendra. Of the many tanks I know the most about these and have played around them through-out legion.

You want my TL;DR choice? Death Knight for Raiding, Demon Hunter for M+. Now for the why, and I will use the points that you did with my take on them.

Trash Management: To imply that Demon Hunter as little to no ability to lock down large masses of mobs is absolutely absurd. Death Knight has access to Mass Grip that is very useful and some snap AoE to maintain threat, but Demon Hunter has LARGE amounts of snap and sustained AoE with Sigil of Flame, Immo Aura, Soul Cleave, and now Spirit Bomb (even after the Tuesday Nerf). We also have a Sigil of Chains for mass grip potential if needs AND an AoE silence and fear (the silence being HUGE utility for dungeons especially). Honestly, they are both strong in this area but I believe DH pulls out ahead overall with the focus being in their variety of sigils.

Damage: Damage is not to be overlooked even when discussing tanks. Single target focused damage up to this point i would have given the edge to DK but not but much if both tanks are running mostly survival talents. In AoE/Dungeon situations DH wins out especially now with their Snap AoE (Fel Devastation/Spirit Bomb, Immo Aura initail hit, and rapid Soul Cleave) along with their sustain tools (Sigil of Flame and Immo Aura ticks). DK does have Blood Boil, DnD, and Bonestorm if they take it but they simply run out of things to press before DH and just do not do as much damage in both areas mentioned above.

Mitigation: This is very damage type, talent, and lego dependent but I will attempt to rely on the classes base abilities and design. As far as passive reduction is concerned, DH wins out big time. DK relies on plate armor and keeping up their bones shield, while DH has lots of passive mitigation through our Demonic Wards passive. Physical damage is mitigated REALLY well by DH as well because of how Demon Spikes works with high parry (slightly less once we all transition to the new tier DH gains better overall mitigation with t20). Magic damage and overall cooldowns with where the DK pulls ahead in a raid setting. DH has a very low CD magic mitigation and the glory that is Soul Barrer, but DK has AMS and better overall reactive healing than DH does. Both have very niche abilities that can really steal the show but in this category I believe overall DK wins in a raid setting, and DH in M+ due to Demon Spikes.

Utility: As far as a raid is concerned, what a DH can offer is VERY niche in terms of utility and the robust nature of DK grips combined with cheesing mechanics with AMS puts the DK ahead in my book. But for dungeons...DH is king, no question. Sigils for all situations, GREAT AoE damage and damage control through spikes and Soul Barrier, ranged interrupt that generates resource, powerful sustain, and GOD mode in Meta. The list of power house abilites designed around 5-man content is huge. Is DK a bad choice, absolutely not, and wins out in raids most of the time. But DH has HIGH movement and great control of adds and only falls because in gripping in a single target.

All in all, I think these two tanks are actually very enjoyable overall and really comes down to what content you are looking to pursue and your play style.

[Grobovshik]

You want my TL;DR choice? Death Knight for Raiding, Demon Hunter for M+.

For insanely high keys DK is a king. Leech buff and self healing is just too strong.

[Tech614]

For insanely high keys DK is a king. Leech buff and self healing is just too strong.

I hope this is a joke, VDH slaughters BDK in self healing in any aoe situation. With fragment, spirit bomb and charred warblades you basically have 50% leech of all your aoe damage(which is a lot of damage if you haven't noticed, even post nerf).

VDH is basically immortal to trash packs in Mythic+, outside of some extreme situations where you could get globalled by not being prepapred properly.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Both are fun and have that fun badass swagger going.

• DKs are slow but nigh invincible, and who needs to run when you can Death Grip? You can't run from them and you can't kill them either (they're already dead!).
• DHs are possibly the most mobile class in the game, especially when spec'd into Abyssal Strike. They can chase you down, eat your soul, and use it to blow up your friends. What could be more badass than that?

[Vampiregenesis]

Trash Management: To imply that Demon Hunter as little to no ability to lock down large masses of mobs is absolutely absurd. Death Knight has access to Mass Grip that is very useful and some snap AoE to maintain threat, but Demon Hunter has LARGE amounts of snap and sustained AoE with Sigil of Flame, Immo Aura, Soul Cleave, and now Spirit Bomb (even after the Tuesday Nerf). We also have a Sigil of Chains for mass grip potential if needs AND an AoE silence and fear (the silence being HUGE utility for dungeons especially). Honestly, they are both strong in this area but I believe DH pulls out ahead overall with the focus being in their variety of sigils.

When it comes to trash management , nothing really can compare to blood boil , blood boil is really op especially with leg chest. I have saved my grp several times thanks to it when someone ninjaed a pack , as dh 1 or 2 players would die before i manage to bring the situation under control.

It might be a skill issue who knows , dk looks easier than dh , i feel more confident as dk , i just did a +15 2 chest with him. My dh also has worse gear , i managed to complete a +15 with him aswell but i always feel like i die and his dps is worse now , gotta try the sigil of chains , it might help with some issues.

[Mirishka]

I have two tanks , a dh and a dk , i have tanked mythic nh and tons of mythic+ with both of them at high key lvls , i have to admit that dk is leagues above dh , lets see why:

Dk pros compared to Dh

1. DK has much better trash management , Dh has no tools to control chaotic situations while dk can just use his blood boil or gorefiend grasp and get everything under control asap , blood boil is MUCH stronger at sustaining aggro compared to sigil of flame or glaive , literally this hurts a lot at mythic+ , sometimes someone ninja pulls or trash are spread and there is no way to take control of all of it fast as dh while as dk its very easy.

No tools to control trash? Um.. Sigils?

I hate to be that person... but do you even play DH?

[Killface1]

I donno, I think an AoE silence, an AoE fear, a single target interrupt, a single target cc that functions as an interrupt on most mobs, an AoE grip if specced, and 30-40% more damage than any other tank give it a pretty solid edge on most tanks in said "controlling chaotic situations"

[Saverem]

Also Chain pull sigil > mass grip because of shorter cd. Also aoe silence, and stun.

Actually, mass grip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain sigil because of the huge range on it. You can pull every mob within like 30 yards to you where as the Sigil is like 1/3 the size. Also, both have a 1.5m CD with talents.

Well. DKs are pretty good.

DHs do receive more damage and have trouble with survivability, even more now with all these phys damage fights on ToS. Still, we can do all content, and i do like how our spec plays. i only wish we had a little more survivability.

Huh? DKs receive MUCH more damage than DHs, that's why they heal for like 4X more than DHs do. Don't forget that we have plate levels of armor boosts and "tattoos" that reduce our magical/physical damage by another 20% on top of DS and Fiery Brand which is pretty much THE best boss mitigation CD in the game (40% every min or less with leggo)

I have two tanks , a dh and a dk , i have tanked mythic nh and tons of mythic+ with both of them at high key lvls , i have to admit that dk is leagues above dh , lets see why:

Wow... you REALLY don't know what you're talking about. You didn't even mention the best part about having DK tanks for M+ now, their 20% grp leach for 15s every 45s.

[Marhault]

When it comes to trash management , nothing really can compare to blood boil , blood boil is really op especially with leg chest. I have saved my grp several times thanks to it when someone ninjaed a pack , as dh 1 or 2 players would die before i manage to bring the situation under control.

It might be a skill issue who knows , dk looks easier than dh , i feel more confident as dk , i just did a +15 2 chest with him. My dh also has worse gear , i managed to complete a +15 with him aswell but i always feel like i die and his dps is worse now , gotta try the sigil of chains , it might help with some issues.

A single leap into that pack will pick everything up. No one should die. If your reaction time is fast enough to blood boil, it should be fast enough to leap.

[Thelxi]

Jump from great heights.