Which raid had the better Kil'jaeden?

[Lahis]

During SWP our heroes were lower level, had low experience and weaker gear compared to present day of the lore. With those conditions we barely fight him and now we can go face to face. For me it's totally ok, cause now our heroes are badasses too.

Levels don't matter for lore. Nor do item levels.

Sure, adventurers are more experienced now than what they were during Sunwell Crisis and we do have the artifacts so we're more powerful now, but not teh extent in game numbers would like you to believe.

[Deathquoi]

I wish they'd just release mythic same day to spare us from a week of "hurr durr X boss is a joke because people with mythic NH on farm killed him on heroic!"

[tikcol]

There's no point to this thread considering back in TBC people didn't have access to fights in other difficulties.

The amount of people that actually progressed through sunwell is minimal, considering this small sample and expect a reasonable amount of people that populate this forum to be a good representation of that already small slice of a sample is just silly.

I don't think one-shotting sunwell kil'jaeden would be a good way to discern which fight is better.

[Deleted]

I like how the conclusion of the Kil'jaeden fight fits for a good ending to end TBC with, ending the ''burning crusade'' and pushing back the Legion long enough till they got active again in todays expansion. In the Tomb he felt to much like a mid-tier boss which is to much of a downgrade from someone who used to be such an evil guy. Mechanic wise there's probably no doubt that ToS has it better (I'd love to see that fog of war mechanic), but I also find it very important with the way a boss is presented outside of the actual fight. Is his fight on mythic really that much different comapred to heroic?

You got the point. KJ is now a mid tier boss. And this, even if lore-wise he still is way way more powerful then, for example another mid tier boss like Blackhand, reflects on the encounter and the feeling you have with it.

Let's take Kel thuzad for example. For sure it's way way way more epic in the Vanilla player mind but not so epic for WoTLK players, despite both bosses are actually and literally the same (mechanics also).

[antelope591]

Haha, kids feel entitled after beating normal. Whats new.

I almost wish blizz would start doing this for end bosses...than all the idiots who talk about beating him on normal and its no different than mythic will be in that thread crying that they'll never get to see the boss.

[Polarthief]

He feels half finished in ToS. There's so much downtime where you're just standing around it ruins the whole pace

Yeah, that's proof you did him on Normal. On Heroic, there isn't much downtime as you almost always have a Dreadflame, Armageddon, players with the swirls, and/or the purple orb.

PS/OT: This thread is literally pointless til we see Mythic KJ. When you're comparing an old raid with ONE difficulty to one with FOUR and only half of them are out (and not the final/hardest one), it's a little unfair.

[klaps_05]

after clearing him on heroic last night, the only downtime I noticed was when he is repositioning for a new focused dreadflame. other than that the singularity dreadflame armageddon timers are veery tight. increase his flight speed and it will cut the little downtime it has now

[Bigbazz]

I voted Sunwell but being realistic... I only got as far as Muru while it was relevant, and I've only killed KJ on normal where he died on the 2nd pull with only 2 people in the entire raid having even glanced at tactics beforehand, facerollably easy for someone who has been away from raiding since February. I probably will not see KJ on Mythic unless I come back to full time WoW playing and join a high end guild, that's unlikely to happen so I can't have an informed opinion..

However, KJ in TOS is smaller than he was in Sunwell, therfor Sunwell KJ > TOS KJ.

[Kazuchika]

I almost wish blizz would start doing this for end bosses...than all the idiots who talk about beating him on normal and its no different than mythic will be in that thread crying that they'll never get to see the boss.

Yeah blizz is totally gonna change their raiding structure because people are getting triggered about nerds babbling on fansites about perceived difficulty.

[Echocho]

Yes, I am pretty sure you managed to beat him on Sunwell... not. If you had, you wouldn't compare Normal (or even HC) KJ with your overgeared raid and bis leggos to an overtuned boss with buggy mechanics and broken classes, not to mention gear issues... You don't even fucking know what Mythic KJ is like, and you will probably never will, as you can't even understand that old raids were tuned to be completed by 1-2% of the players, just like... MYTHIC. :P I am sure this must be a lot to take in, take some time and think about it.

A lot of assumptions there buddy. I did kill him in TBC along with the other 1-2% or whatever number people make up these days and I'm going to kill him on mythic eventually. Heroic is already cleared so mythic shouldn't take long considering you don't need months of gear progression to clear anything these days.

[Herogamer555]

99% of people voting on this never did Sunwell KJ when it was current content, so this poll is kind of pointless.

[Deleted]

I'm not gonna judge fights.

My issue with ToS kil'jaeden is that quite frankly, regardless of the super epic environment, super epic ship, super epic argus scenery change.... it feels like an invasion end boss rather than the fucking supreme commander of the burning legion.

Part of the problem with ToS kil'jaeden is his introduction before, during, and after Fallen Avatar. Like, let me get this straight. Half the undead campaign of wc3 was about the preparations needed to summon Archimonde, who is generally believed to be a similar power level to KJ. HFC showed how big of a deal managing to summon Archimonde was. All of Sunwell Plateau had the entire premise that if KJ managed to get summoned successfully it would basically be the end of the planet barring some new malfurion/archimonde miracle bullshit. Should I add it took an enormous source of power to summon KJ aka the sunwell itself?

Meanwhile, in ToS kil'jaeden is just running around on our planet. Like, um, sorry, how the fuck did you get here dude? Oh, you flew a spaceship. Okay then. Care to explain why the fuck you made all those super elaborate plans with the orcs and Medivh and everything from all the way back in warcraft 2, when you could have just come by ship? Shit makes no sense.

I am not even a lore nerd and quite frankly don't really care about lore at all but these are the major reasons this KJ fight in ToS just feels like a big ????? and doesn't feel like the ending such a powerful character deserves. It would have been perfect if it was some high ranking demon, responsible of the invasion or something. But not fucking KJ. Fucking KJ can't just jump from world to world by spaceship.

And on that regard, even though the mechanics/environment/model/details/scenery/etc are much more refined than the sunwell encounter..... the sunwell encounter actually feels much mroe appealing and involving :/

[Jastall]

So you're talking about what, 10-15 seconds on an 8 minute fight? Such downtime. It's definitely HFA.

I don't think the fight is bad, but I do think the poster you quoted is right. The first intermission is pointless. In ph2 you deal with the exact same abilities, plus you have a boss to DPS and dangerous adds to kill so it's deadlier. So really, there's nothing hard about it, there's nothing unique to the phase, you just wait for him to go through the motions because there's close to 0 chances of anyone dying once you've done it once.

The second intermission is how you should do it, unique mechanics that bring variety to the fight.

I can't compare the two since I didn't raid back in TBC, but I can say that the ToS model looks far better. The Sunwell one has such a derpy face, and the model's stubby legs (check him out in the dungeon journal) cannot be unseen.

[Tech614]

I'm not gonna judge fights.

My issue with ToS kil'jaeden is that quite frankly, regardless of the super epic environment, super epic ship, super epic argus scenery change.... it feels like an invasion end boss rather than the fucking supreme commander of the burning legion.

Part of the problem with ToS kil'jaeden is his introduction before, during, and after Fallen Avatar. Like, let me get this straight. Half the undead campaign of wc3 was about the preparations needed to summon Archimonde, who is generally believed to be a similar power level to KJ. HFC showed how big of a deal managing to summon Archimonde was. All of Sunwell Plateau had the entire premise that if KJ managed to get summoned successfully it would basically be the end of the planet barring some new malfurion/archimonde miracle bullshit. Should I add it took an enormous source of power to summon KJ aka the sunwell itself?

Meanwhile, in ToS kil'jaeden is just running around on our planet. Like, um, sorry, how the fuck did you get here dude? Oh, you flew a spaceship. Okay then. Care to explain why the fuck you made all those super elaborate plans with the orcs and Medivh and everything from all the way back in warcraft 2, when you could have just come by ship? Shit makes no sense.

I am not even a lore nerd and quite frankly don't really care about lore at all but these are the major reasons this KJ fight in ToS just feels like a big ????? and doesn't feel like the ending such a powerful character deserves. It would have been perfect if it was some high ranking demon, responsible of the invasion or something. But not fucking KJ. Fucking KJ can't just jump from world to world by spaceship.

And on that regard, even though the mechanics/environment/model/details/scenery/etc are much more refined than the sunwell encounter..... the sunwell encounter actually feels much mroe appealing and involving :/

Uhh KJ did not "fly his spaceship" here. He fucking ported it and himself here using the already open gateway that happened at the start of legion. The same way all the other millions of demons got here since the start of legion.

[Soluna]

A lot of assumptions there buddy. I did kill him in TBC along with the other 1-2% or whatever number people make up these days and I'm going to kill him on mythic eventually. Heroic is already cleared so mythic shouldn't take long considering you don't need months of gear progression to clear anything these days.

Yeah ok proof or go back and flex your awesomeness to fools who believe it. Every person on mmo-champion is a self-proclaimed world first raider who has beaten old naxx and sunwell by farting on their keyboard.

[arcaneshot]

99% of people voting on this never did Sunwell KJ when it was current content, so this poll is kind of pointless.

99% aren't even going to fight Mythic KJ so it's completely worthless.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Do you have any idea how different the mythic gul'dan fight was to heroic?

Some mechanics are similar but even the similar ones are handled completely differently.

Also this poll is pointless. No one has experienced mythic KJ (only one that matters) and I guarantee you more than half of the people who voted never experienced Sunwell at all when it was relevant.

Agreed on the part where people didn't raid Sunwell, but then again, the majority here will never run it on mythic aswell. Everyone knows that mythic has mechanics intense stuff new approaches blah blah blah, but normal/heroic is what the playerbase does. If there's something to be discussed, it will be discussed on that, since the alternative is discussing other people's kills and you can't really get the feel of a raid if it's done by others.

[Deleted]

Depending on what better mean for you.
On the feeling/atmosphere Sunwell > ToS
On the mechanics, dunno. But obviously TBC mechanics are easier than Legion mechanics.

[Deleted]

Sunwell definitely. Finally getting to step in to the room to see him after months of progress just felt epic. This one died the same day the raid opened sadly.

Well SWP KJ died about 4 Days after becoming available (while having to down the hardest Boss Mu'ru before). Wonder how Long M ToS KJ will stay up after M Avatar dies

[Deleted]

Environment/ lore wise.

Sunwell KJ > LFR KJ (Assumed)
Sunwell KJ > Normal mode KJ (Confirmed)
Sunwell KJ > Heroic mode KJ (Confirmed)

Tuning wise

Sunwell KJ > LFR KJ (Assumed)
Sunwell KJ > Normal mode KJ (Confirmed)
Sunwell KJ >= Heroic mode KJ (Confirmed) (Only due to raid size scaling, otherwise Sunwell KJ is more tightly tuned)

Mechanic wise
Sunwell KJ > LFR KJ (Assumed)
Sunwell KJ > Normal mode KJ (Confirmed)
Sunwell KJ > Heroic mode KJ (Confirmed)

We'll see how mythic turns out.