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  1. #1721
    Deleted
    Many hunters who aim top rank dps use it, so probably a lot of hunters who use them as exemple are also using it. Maybe it's not the majority, but still there are some hunters.

    Sims shouldnt "be set up how most of the community is gearing". Sims should show all possible gearing, and then the community decide to choose what they want.

  2. #1722
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    Are you asking for me to include the set from arcway and court of stars? I had them in for a while but someone claimed last tier that it was unreasonable for me to include them at higher levels because no one had them, or something.

    It would be reasonable, imo, to include them in configurations of the 900-915 tier/set breakdowns. Especially with tfs proccing up to such high levels right now.
    They're worth about 20 ilvls over non set pieces. Next reset +15s will drop 915 base. So using the +/-20 ilvl rule, the baseline set is stronger than baseline mythic drops in ToS. It's completely reasonable to assume mythic raiders will go after the set if it sims so highly.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I'm glad you brought up IQ, the last standardised IQ test I took I scored a 127, the threshold for 'Genius' is 140, and the threshold for 'Gifted Genius' is 165+, based on the fact the global average IQ is 84, and the fact you're likely Americanwhere the national IQ is BELOW the global average and falling consistently which has led to calls for global intervention in your abysmal education system, I feel you have VERY LITTLE room to talk about IQ levels, but thanks for trying.

  3. #1723
    Quote Originally Posted by ThanksForTheMemories View Post
    They're worth about 20 ilvls over non set pieces. Next reset +15s will drop 915 base. So using the +/-20 ilvl rule, the baseline set is stronger than baseline mythic drops in ToS. It's completely reasonable to assume mythic raiders will go after the set if it sims so highly.
    I used to include the sets but was told not to include them anymore. I think I've come up with a compromise in the newer sims I'm working on.

    I'm running a bunch of sims right now for MM and BM which include comparisons of owtp/stomp vs bf/df, arc/cos set, 2pc4pc. For BM, I'm currently breaking down apex vs huntmaster with the talents. The MM breakdowns is a bit less interesting because the huntmaster just overwhelms any other choice, but it will show lnl vs ta (vs with both in huntmaster), the arc/cos vs 2p 4pc, etc. I should have those posted tonight. I think I've worked through any major kinks. The source will be posted so others can check that I've done due diligence.

    On profiles for 930 and 940 base gear, I've left the arc/cos and 2p T19 items at 915 instead of upping them to 930 to show how valuable the sets are with reasonable gear selections. That's the best compromise I can think of right now. I'm also only including ToS raid gear unless it is T19 for the 2pc or the arc/cos set.

    - - - Updated - - -

    BM sets, talents, and select legendary interactions 915-940

    In these sims, sets from Arcway/CoS (shoulders/wrists), Tier 19 and Tier 20 are mixed and matched at 915-940 item levels. Tier 19 and Arcway/CoS sets are kept at 915 in the higher ilevel sims to fall in line with the upcoming 915 buff to m+.

    BM, 915 base ilvl, ToS combinations with M+ set and T19 2pc. Simcraft Source


    BM, 930 base ilvl, ToS combinations with M+ set and T19 2pc. Simcraft Source


    BM, 940 base ilvl, ToS combinations with M+ set and T19 2pc. Simcraft Source


    MM sets, talents, and select legendary interactions 915-940

    In these sims, sets from Arcway/CoS (shoulders/wrists), Tier 19 and Tier 20 are mixed and matched at 915-940 item levels. Tier 19 and Arcway/CoS sets are kept at 915 in the higher ilevel sims to fall in line with the upcoming 915 buff to m+.

    MM, 915 base ilvl, ToS combinations with M+ set and T19 2pc. Simcraft Source


    MM, 930 base ilvl, ToS combinations with M+ set and T19 2pc. Simcraft Source


    MM, 940 base ilvl, ToS combinations with M+ set and T19 2pc. Simcraft Source



    Some notes about these sims:

    I'm using ToS gear wherever possible. I'm also equipping the 2 UA relics for MM which are straight up overpowered. BM and MM are both competitive specs in terms of dps in comparison to other dps classes. However, MM with Huntmaster and extra UA is OP. I haven't included all legendary options, but I can over time. These are first drafts to show the analysis between owtp/stomp and df/bf, where the CoS/Arc set falls into the spectrum of options, and the gulf between MM and BM as you factor in UA and Huntmaster.

  4. #1724
    Jesus christ MM damage is insane. At least, as BM we are so mobile that unless we are facing a dps wall, I would rather have the mobility and the ease of gameplay for progression.

    On the bright side, beast canon is simming great and that is fantastic news since there's a lot of nice crit gear in ToS and it's so damn good for AOE. Doing a multishot + double stomp during BW on KJ heroic adds is just sex.

  5. #1725
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickensoup23 View Post
    Jesus christ MM damage is insane. At least, as BM we are so mobile that unless we are facing a dps wall, I would rather have the mobility and the ease of gameplay for progression.

    On the bright side, beast canon is simming great and that is fantastic news since there's a lot of nice crit gear in ToS and it's so damn good for AOE. Doing a multishot + double stomp during BW on KJ heroic adds is just sex.
    You're right, BM hunters have full mobility and easy gameplay.

    That's why for me, they never deserved to deal more than MM, il every situation. It's okay to play an easier spec, that's not the issue. But easier spec should be less rewarding.

  6. #1726
    With a 10% lead in single target and a ridiculous lead in AoE, a MM hunter facerolling his keyboard should still beat a well-played BM. The ratio on non-huntmaster MM to top BM profiles is reasonable. Huntmaster pushes MM back into the ratios we were seeing with the HFC set bonuses. More importantly, it seems like it puts MM above most other dps classes in all situations (st and aoe). I think this is a bad situation for MM to be in. An imbalance like this tends to get really punitive once the devs get enough whining. I'd rather they adjust us slightly down than a huge nerfbat (assuming they do come down on MM)

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    Edit: I do think this will stay live for at least a few weeks though. For those who have huntmaster, go nuts and enjoy the qq from other classes while it lasts!

  7. #1727
    Currently, is it recommended to keep 4T19 until I get 4T20?

    My Legos include apex, bracers, and shoulders

  8. #1728
    Quote Originally Posted by Theicon1681 View Post
    Currently, is it recommended to keep 4T19 until I get 4T20?

    My Legos include apex, bracers, and shoulders
    4pc T19 with 2 pc T20 is strong for all hunter specs. You can see this is section 2 (Tier breakdown) in the first post.

  9. #1729
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    With a 10% lead in single target and a ridiculous lead in AoE, a MM hunter facerolling his keyboard should still beat a well-played BM. The ratio on non-huntmaster MM to top BM profiles is reasonable. Huntmaster pushes MM back into the ratios we were seeing with the HFC set bonuses. More importantly, it seems like it puts MM above most other dps classes in all situations (st and aoe). I think this is a bad situation for MM to be in. An imbalance like this tends to get really punitive once the devs get enough whining. I'd rather they adjust us slightly down than a huge nerfbat (assuming they do come down on MM)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Edit: I do think this will stay live for at least a few weeks though. For those who have huntmaster, go nuts and enjoy the qq from other classes while it lasts!
    I think either you or the sims are vastly overvalueing Huntsmaster. I can't check it myself (partly because I'm not clever enough with SimC), but is TA modelled correct on multitarget fights? Remember that *any* fight where you're fighting multiple targets, you'll keep resetting TA repeatedly, meaning the sim is unreasonable. There's a fair few encounters where TA is godmode this time around (Goroth, Maiden, Avatar IIRC), but other fights where any sort of add spawns, the ring will lose immense amounts of value, which I don't think the sims are reflecting fairly (because I think it just assumes TA is always up on the main target).

  10. #1730
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    BM sets, talents, and select legendary interactions 915-940

    In these sims, sets from Arcway/CoS (shoulders/wrists), Tier 19 and Tier 20 are mixed and matched at 915-940 item levels. Tier 19 and Arcway/CoS sets are kept at 915 in the higher ilevel sims to fall in line with the upcoming 915 buff to m+.

    BM, 940 base ilvl, ToS combinations with M+ set and T19 2pc. Simcraft Source
    Do I read you simC setup correctly that you suggest the usage of T19 legs and shoulders? Wouldn't it be better tu use t19 cloak and hands and a smaller loss of stats? Sorry if that already has come up in the overall discussion sofar!
    Last edited by Keren; 2017-06-26 at 03:48 PM.

    Wildstar Black Ops - loved by strangers

  11. #1731
    Quote Originally Posted by Keren View Post
    Do I read you simC setup correctly that you suggest the usage of T19 legs and shoulders? Wouldn't it be better tu use t19 cloak and hands and a smaller loss of stats? Sorry if that already has come in the overall discussion sofar!
    For the legs @915, the t19 has mastery on them, while the itemization on the T20 is not as nice. Going to stress this again. You should sim your T19 options with your own gear. Each person's luck with tier TF in NH will dictate what you are wearing as a T19/T20 combo. But there is no gear change on legs in ToS that is going to bridge the gulf between mm & bm with huntmaster and ua (and the nerfs that were done to JoT and PL).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I think either you or the sims are vastly overvalueing Huntsmaster. I can't check it myself (partly because I'm not clever enough with SimC), but is TA modelled correct on multitarget fights? Remember that *any* fight where you're fighting multiple targets, you'll keep resetting TA repeatedly, meaning the sim is unreasonable. There's a fair few encounters where TA is godmode this time around (Goroth, Maiden, Avatar IIRC), but other fights where any sort of add spawns, the ring will lose immense amounts of value, which I don't think the sims are reflecting fairly (because I think it just assumes TA is always up on the main target).
    The way everything is modeled does present an advantage to TA in multi-target fights. It is keeping the same focus target throughout to keep TA at max stacks and cleaving with multi-shot when you have 2+ targets for Marked Shot. I would say that most of the fights do have priority adds, but from looking at logs of most MM hunters that are using TA and from interacting with MM hunters in raids and pugs, I think the model of simmed target focus is pretty accurate for how most MM hunters play. Tunnel the boss and cleave onto the adds unless the raid leader calls you out to switch or else (I've had to do this with MM hunters in my raid before when priority adds weren't dying fast enough). There's definitely a penalty for switching from a priority target with TA which doesn't exist for most cleave-based classes. I think rogues have a similar limitation but they also don't have the AoE benefits that MM has. I can do some sims that show how much is lost when swapping targets in AoE situations, but that obviously doesn't exist with single target boss fights and I'm not sure any of the boss fights with adds are actually detrimental to having both TA and LnL at the same time (as you do with ring).

    Most tanks simply clump the adds on heroic. Not sure how viable this is going to be on Mythic though. For instance, on heroic KJ, we were just stacking the shadow adds on top of the boss. This was perfect for MM cleave as all three of the adds were right there on the boss, and we were just healing through the Eruption stacks. Maybe not possible in Mythic (though I'm sure I'll get pushback from forcing MM hunters to switch targets).

  12. #1732
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post

    The way everything is modeled does present an advantage to TA in multi-target fights. It is keeping the same focus target throughout to keep TA at max stacks and cleaving with multi-shot when you have 2+ targets for Marked Shot. I would say that most of the fights do have priority adds, but from looking at logs of most MM hunters that are using TA and from interacting with MM hunters in raids and pugs, I think the model of simmed target focus is pretty accurate for how most MM hunters play. Tunnel the boss and cleave onto the adds unless the raid leader calls you out to switch or else (I've had to do this with MM hunters in my raid before when priority adds weren't dying fast enough). There's definitely a penalty for switching from a priority target with TA which doesn't exist for most cleave-based classes. I think rogues have a similar limitation but they also don't have the AoE benefits that MM has. I can do some sims that show how much is lost when swapping targets in AoE situations, but that obviously doesn't exist with single target boss fights and I'm not sure any of the boss fights with adds are actually detrimental to having both TA and LnL at the same time (as you do with ring).

    Most tanks simply clump the adds on heroic. Not sure how viable this is going to be on Mythic though. For instance, on heroic KJ, we were just stacking the shadow adds on top of the boss. This was perfect for MM cleave as all three of the adds were right there on the boss, and we were just healing through the Eruption stacks. Maybe not possible in Mythic (though I'm sure I'll get pushback from forcing MM hunters to switch targets).

    True Aim falls of during cleave with Trick Shot.

  13. #1733
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    For the legs @915, the t19 has mastery on them, while the itemization on the T20 is not as nice. Going to stress this again. You should sim your T19 options with your own gear. Each person's luck with tier TF in NH will dictate what you are wearing as a T19/T20 combo. But there is no gear change on legs in ToS that is going to bridge the gulf between mm & bm with huntmaster and ua (and the nerfs that were done to JoT and PL).

    - - - Updated - - -



    The way everything is modeled does present an advantage to TA in multi-target fights. It is keeping the same focus target throughout to keep TA at max stacks and cleaving with multi-shot when you have 2+ targets for Marked Shot. I would say that most of the fights do have priority adds, but from looking at logs of most MM hunters that are using TA and from interacting with MM hunters in raids and pugs, I think the model of simmed target focus is pretty accurate for how most MM hunters play. Tunnel the boss and cleave onto the adds unless the raid leader calls you out to switch or else (I've had to do this with MM hunters in my raid before when priority adds weren't dying fast enough). There's definitely a penalty for switching from a priority target with TA which doesn't exist for most cleave-based classes. I think rogues have a similar limitation but they also don't have the AoE benefits that MM has. I can do some sims that show how much is lost when swapping targets in AoE situations, but that obviously doesn't exist with single target boss fights and I'm not sure any of the boss fights with adds are actually detrimental to having both TA and LnL at the same time (as you do with ring).

    Most tanks simply clump the adds on heroic. Not sure how viable this is going to be on Mythic though. For instance, on heroic KJ, we were just stacking the shadow adds on top of the boss. This was perfect for MM cleave as all three of the adds were right there on the boss, and we were just healing through the Eruption stacks. Maybe not possible in Mythic (though I'm sure I'll get pushback from forcing MM hunters to switch targets).
    If you are playing Trick Shot with True Aim, the cleave'd Aimed Shot damage resets True Aim on primary target. That is why it is devalued in a real raid setting.

  14. #1734
    The other two pointed it out, but yea, that was what I was getting at; If you're using trick shot, ANY fight where you hit more than 1 target will cause it to reset 24/7, making it a completely unviable choice (and considering how effective MM cleave is, that's ANY fight with adds).

  15. #1735
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    If you are playing Trick Shot with True Aim, the cleave'd Aimed Shot damage resets True Aim on primary target. That is why it is devalued in a real raid setting.
    The sims showing single target are the more problematic in terms of bm vs mm. I'm not sure if the TA reset is currently working on mm cleave. I'm not creating custom spells in these sims. I'm using stock mm apl with default hunter module. I usually don't create custom spells unless there is a major issue in the module.

  16. #1736
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    The sims showing single target are the more problematic in terms of bm vs mm. I'm not sure if the TA reset is currently working on mm cleave. I'm not creating custom spells in these sims. I'm using stock mm apl with default hunter module. I usually don't create custom spells unless there is a major issue in the module.
    Which is entirely fine - it's just worth pointing out that in any fight outside of Goroth and Maiden (and to an extent, Avatar; Maiden switch is argueably going to cause some loss, but that's 4 times over the duration of the fight), these numbers are unrealistic to an extent where there's AOE to be done, the belt will likely pull ahead. On a pure single target encounter, they're reasonable. Don't get me wrong, MM is looking incredibly OP with vuln traits and on pure single, but when the sims likely aren't accounting for TA resetting on cleave, any sims on +2 targets should probably not be using the ring unless we're sure it behaves correct.

  17. #1737
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Which is entirely fine - it's just worth pointing out that in any fight outside of Goroth and Maiden (and to an extent, Avatar; Maiden switch is argueably going to cause some loss, but that's 4 times over the duration of the fight), these numbers are unrealistic to an extent where there's AOE to be done, the belt will likely pull ahead. On a pure single target encounter, they're reasonable. Don't get me wrong, MM is looking incredibly OP with vuln traits and on pure single, but when the sims likely aren't accounting for TA resetting on cleave, any sims on +2 targets should probably not be using the ring unless we're sure it behaves correct.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you'd go with single-target on Demonic Inquisition and Sisters too right?
    On Demonic Inquisition you don't want to tank the bosses together, on mythic even less so I believe because you don't want to get the debuff by cleaving? Not sure on this one, haven't had the time to check on mythic abilities
    For the Sisters, there's the owl, but overall it's pretty much ST I think?

    So we'd have the following "ST" bosses: Goroth, Demonic Inquisition, Sisters of the Moon, Maiden and Avatar. 4 out of 9.

    But as you said, the other fights are heavily in favor of multitarget and the sims are not representing the ring correctly.

  18. #1738
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpor View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you'd go with single-target on Demonic Inquisition and Sisters too right?
    On Demonic Inquisition you don't want to tank the bosses together, on mythic even less so I believe because you don't want to get the debuff by cleaving? Not sure on this one, haven't had the time to check on mythic abilities
    For the Sisters, there's the owl, but overall it's pretty much ST I think?

    So we'd have the following "ST" bosses: Goroth, Demonic Inquisition, Sisters of the Moon, Maiden and Avatar. 4 out of 9.

    But as you said, the other fights are heavily in favor of multitarget and the sims are not representing the ring correctly.
    Dunno with sisters, gotta stack it up 3x times (once per sister), and everytime the bird spawns. It's been spawning multiple times in our later kills this week during P2, which suggests it probably will on Mythic as well, so realistically, P1 and P3 are single target. I guess you could argue it's about as single target as Avatar, though.

    As for DI, keep in mind that for the mythic test, the bosses had surprisingly low healthpools, but each time you went inside, you'd spawn an add outside that'd fixate on people (ala gorefiend) with ~1% of the bosses HP; Low enough that they are deffo not gonna be ignored, but high enough (40M on test, according to videos) that you will need to snipe them down. I'd be very surprised if MM isn't going to be considered one of the best for that, outside of the obvious multidotters who are going to hit them, then ignore them for the duration of their dots.

  19. #1739
    Effin, you might want to re-run all your stuff for BM on the latest nightly. Apparently a fix was put in that corrected us getting more BW uptime than we should have been, and seems to have disproportionately affected the stomp builds, as in bringing them down pretty significantly in many cases.

  20. #1740
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Effin, you might want to re-run all your stuff for BM on the latest nightly. Apparently a fix was put in that corrected us getting more BW uptime than we should have been, and seems to have disproportionately affected the stomp builds, as in bringing them down pretty significantly in many cases.
    Is this fix somehow connected to the false haste breakpoint at ~20% haste which exists/existed in Simcraft for BM?

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