Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Valentyn]

So the 945 Specter seems to be... good. Quite good. Here's a log of a H Goroth where it did 5.23% of my damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

I basically used it off CD - with the 0:45 CD, every 2nd one lines up with the Vanish-Symbols-DFA-Dance combo. And these things CAN crit and are buffed by all of those damage increases. And my usage was far from perfect, too - this was just a pug, and many of my uses did not double hit because of boss movement.

So not only is that a 25k upgrade over my 905 NBF from Agility alone, it seems to do as much or more damage as NBF, even with less than perfect usage.

I suspect it will work even better with 4 pc, where it can be used with Symbols-Dance every time, as every second Symbols is 0:50 apart. It's a tough call whether that will be better than wearing 2pc+2pc though. That sort of thing will be hard to sim since I don't think the APL is clever enough to use this trinket optimally in both setups.

P.S. Yes it's off GCD

That's a great result, and Goroth isn't a great boss for it either. Since you'll move the around every minute and can't always place both Specters near each other to make them both explode on the boss.

The longer the fight the better for the trinket as well.

It's a very good trinket alright. Mine is only 910, so I still use NBF 905 on some fights; but as you mentioned it also has synergy with the rest of our cooldowns.

[WoWnoob]

opening recommendation with mantle+bracers? (dfa build and non dfa build)

thanks

[Deleted]

So the 945 Specter seems to be... good. Quite good. Here's a log of a H Goroth where it did 5.23% of my damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

I basically used it off CD - with the 0:45 CD, every 2nd one lines up with the Vanish-Symbols-DFA-Dance combo. And these things CAN crit and are buffed by all of those damage increases. And my usage was far from perfect, too - this was just a pug, and many of my uses did not double hit because of boss movement.

So not only is that a 25k upgrade over my 905 NBF from Agility alone, it seems to do as much or more damage as NBF, even with less than perfect usage.

I suspect it will work even better with 4 pc, where it can be used with Symbols-Dance every time, as every second Symbols is 0:50 apart. It's a tough call whether that will be better than wearing 2pc+2pc though. That sort of thing will be hard to sim since I don't think the APL is clever enough to use this trinket optimally in both setups.

P.S. Yes it's off GCD

but there are bosses around at which this trinket cannot ideally used.

[Won7on]

opening recommendation with mantle+bracers? (dfa build and non dfa build)

thanks

Riff explains both openers pretty well: https://riff.tf/guide/subtlety

[WoWnoob]

Riff explains both openers pretty well: https://riff.tf/guide/subtlety

great guide, didnt know about that one, tyvm

[Faildevil]

Does anyone has experience with the new Sub gloves? Are they better/even than the bracers or even mantle?

[upliftin]

I heard they were good (and considered as a BiS) before the nerf pre-patch

[Won7on]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

So Aff just got nerfed. Any bets on how long until the inevitable Sub nerfs?



I'm gonna guess 1 week.

[Varolyn]

I don't think sub will get nerfed. They've been flying under the radar kinda and unlike affliction I don't see anyone complaining on these forums about sub rogues in general being op like they do for aff.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

So Aff just got nerfed. Any bets on how long until the inevitable Sub nerfs?

I'm gonna guess 1 week.

Why would they nerf it when they can just fix it?

[Todesbote]

Why would they nerf it when they can just fix it?

What needs to be fixed exactly? The only things that comes to mind is the Vanish bug which we profit from but does almost nothing for Sub (able to use 2 abilities from Stealth) and the Weaponmaster DfA bug (Eviscerate part of DfA not triggering when WM procs) where we simply spec to Master of Subtlety+DfA. I must have missed something?

Overall I think it's more than ok for Sub to be able to outshine other specs under perfect circumstances (execution, mechanics) considering how easy it is to fuck up the rotation and how the loss-of-control malus of DfA can fuck you up on some mechanics.

I think it's actually pretty cool to have some bosses where Sub is on top and some where Assa is on top in ToS. I feel like this is how it should be. The only thing I really hate about Assa is the T20 set. I have never seen a less appealing set in WoW ever.

[howolowitz]

I just got the sub gloves and was wondering if theyre any good. They look a alittle meh to me but never know. I'm now using Mantle+Insignia. My other sub leg is boots. Any thoughts?

[Valentyn]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

So Aff just got nerfed. Any bets on how long until the inevitable Sub nerfs?



I'm gonna guess 1 week.

I haven't even gotten a single new tier piece, please no. Let me have that small edge over the godly Assa rogue in our guild a little longer.

[Dikka]

I haven't even gotten a single new tier piece, please no. Let me have that small edge over the godly Assa rogue in our guild a little longer.

Bliz prefer not to nerf classes while progression race is active. At least not for that small few percent advantage in _heroic_.
I also assume mechanics in _mythic_ will affect sub rogues performance a bit.

All in all - for next few weeks there is not much to worry about.
(keep in mind that this is Bliz and they still can smash us with nerfhummer at any time for no real reason...)

[RobertoCarlos]

I could easily see them going overboard and nerfing sub into oblivion. Wouldnt be the first time they have done that THIS expansion

[DonDonnie]

Hello fellow rogues.

I'm just getting into Sub and I want to play with the DfA build but the opener is kinda... complicated for someone new to Sub (or maybe I'm just slow?). Anyway, quick question; can you macro in the whole opener? It's a very set opener it seems, but it's looong right?

Also, I looked through Riff's guide and I love how straight forward it is. One thing I didn't find out though, should I just use SD on cooldown? Or Should I be lining that up? As far as I can tell I only need to line up Vanish and DfA?

Sorry for being a Sub scrub.

[Deleted]

Cant macro it. Just spend a hour on a dummy and get the opener in to a rythm in your fingers. Practice it ubtill it clicks. Then start do instances and LFR, when u get the hang on it go a guildraid

[DonDonnie]

Cant macro it. Just spend a hour on a dummy and get the opener in to a rythm in your fingers. Practice it ubtill it clicks. Then start do instances and LFR, when u get the hang on it go a guildraid

Yeah guess it's the way to go.

But what about Shadow Dance, should I just be using that as much as possible? There must be some kind of "rules" around this?

[Deleted]

Hello fellow rogues.

I'm just getting into Sub and I want to play with the DfA build but the opener is kinda... complicated for someone new to Sub (or maybe I'm just slow?). Anyway, quick question; can you macro in the whole opener? It's a very set opener it seems, but it's looong right?

Also, I looked through Riff's guide and I love how straight forward it is. One thing I didn't find out though, should I just use SD on cooldown? Or Should I be lining that up? As far as I can tell I only need to line up Vanish and DfA?

Sorry for being a Sub scrub.

You will be happy not going that route. It will make you a better player as well(as it takes understanding of how abilities work and thier dynamics).

Consider addons WA/TMW instead, that will give you the best possible overview. Other than that, do the dummy, PvE and even random BGs

Getting used to it takes some time and keep moving your abilities/keys until you are comfy.

[Deleted]

Use shadowdance when DFA land, or on aoe or if u have 2 stacks/soong get 2 stacks