Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Cyanix]

Seems Outlaw will suck once again.

The spec seems decent on paper, sims ok, but once you actually play it in raid, things are very different.

Even on Sassz'ine and Harjatan, which are typical cleave fights, every other class/spec was pushing higher dps.

[Paracetamol]

Had a blast playing outlaw in ToS the other night. The only fight i had trouble with was inquisition but that was more of a me thing than the spec. I feel like the spec is very competitive with other classes now.

[Deleted]

Had a blast playing outlaw in ToS the other night. The only fight i had trouble with was inquisition but that was more of a me thing than the spec. I feel like the spec is very competitive with other classes now.

Where ?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13
and some Aoe fights:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2036
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2037

even on normal:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...6&difficulty=3
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...7&difficulty=3

I don't mind if we lack damamge on ST, as outlaw were always strong on AoE but at the moment it's not worthly to play spec as other specs does everything better.

[MaryJay]

Where ?

and some Aoe fights:


even on normal:


I don't mind if we lack damamge on ST, as outlaw were always strong on AoE but at the moment it's not worthly to play spec as other specs does everything better.

Those statistics mean nothing, they were showing outlaw as one of thee worst dps in previous patches and I was able to do above 80% other melee on every fight offered.
So its l2p issue go practise on dummy instead of whining.

[Deleted]

Where ?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13
and some Aoe fights:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2036
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2037

even on normal:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...6&difficulty=3
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...7&difficulty=3

I don't mind if we lack damamge on ST, as outlaw were always strong on AoE but at the moment it's not worthly to play spec as other specs does everything better.

Outlaw is doing fine compared to other classes. We are not in the bottom. Around and above the middle. Yes the other rogue specs seems to perform better. Go play them if it matters to you that much

[Bastien]

I'm simming better in tier 19 4pc than any 20 at all?! These nerfs to the bonuses are crazy. I can see 2 and 2 being better than t20 4pc. 4/2 means giving up mantle so forget that. Feels terrible going into a new raid knowing you're going to get marginally stronger and everyone around you is going to shoot up.

[Xanatu]

Those statistics mean nothing, they were showing outlaw as one of thee worst dps in previous patches and I was able to do above 80% other melee on every fight offered.
So its l2p issue go practise on dummy instead of whining.

Break out the logs.

[Deleted]

We don't need to roll for TB anymore so that's really not a problem. They actually kind of balanced it finally.

Kind of...
In fact fishing is now really punishing.
You have opportunity to get 2 buffs consistently with LD + RB +CoF if you don't reroll what you get
If you reroll... 1 buff is so poor in many case and 2+ buff is "so rare" it surely (feelcraft) won't be beneficial

The spec is currently more consistant as long as you stay in the "LD pacing" (meaning you RtB under LD buff... always), that's true.
I'm not really exalted by the result (gameplay wise). i fell the spec less... "nervous" (and i don't want to get ride of CoF soon)
But it's clearly less frustrating.
I still think there was a better way to go, but we'll go with that.

[Deleted]

how do we interpret that:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ntinfo=Talents

SnD has an overoll better perf than RtB + MfD?

[Slaygeist]

Is it possible that the simc for T20 Outlaw is currently incorrect? When I sim my character, switching from T19 (890, 4pcs) to T20 (900, 4pcs) is a 30k DPS decrease. Or did they seriously gut our set bonus that horribly? I've run this several times via Raidbots, using both Weekly and Nightly build, with same result.

[Jeclipse]

Is it possible that the simc for T20 Outlaw is currently incorrect? When I sim my character, switching from T19 (890, 4pcs) to T20 (900, 4pcs) is a 30k DPS decrease. Or did they seriously gut our set bonus that horribly? I've run this several times via Raidbots, using both Weekly and Nightly build, with same result.

It's correct, our T20 is just bad, it'll need to be quite a few ilvls above T19 to be an upgrade.

Also outlaw isn't the best atm but it isn't bad, here's a log from our KJ heroic kill, SnD:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

[Deleted]

Okay. To give you some basics about interpreting logs

I'm not an absolute beginner with logs, but i never used the talent ranking. (Didn't know the feature exists to be honest)

I was just surprised that the "general trend" was SnD>MfD overall. Not more than that.

I think i missed the

sims have shown

part, so I was a bit surprised.
I have checked it out now ^^

Thx

ps:
In my own case, extensive simming last week gives SnD = RtB in ST (with a great influence of L15 talent)
But in don't have Bracers nor Frond. Just to tell

[MaryJay]

Yeah, your raidmates need to l2p, because they should be dunking on you.

See, that's the thing about logs. They show that at highest play level, sin and sub are stomping outlaw (and other classes, too) in every scenario. Not sims, actual logs, fights that have occurred since tos launched. You can't call them "fake news" because they actually happened as documented.

Now, if we are low at highest play level, what does that say for us at lower levels? That we don't have much room to improve.

T20 is terrible for us.

So I'll say this, because it apparently bears reminding:

Your anecdotal evidence means nothing. Actual logs showing outlaw performance versus other specs is the best days available for the health of the specs overall.

I call ppl in theese logs and you for beleiving them as they are noobs. Its always the case in mmo's max whiners on forums are max noobs.

T20 is total shit tho

[Deleted]

Okay. To give you some basics about interpreting logs:

1) Note the "75th Percentile" case. If you want to see the absolute best play/gear, increase that. If you want more of an average/all players perspective, lower that.
[/I]

Well, then let me give you some basics about statistics. This might work for many classes, not smart in this case. If you filter RtB pareses by a too high percentile, you end but with logs full of 5 rolls, ruining the comparison.

Also, Logs are biased towards "strong" classes, meaning that the elite players tend to play only what sims high. This has then the effect that the not-high-simmed classes are mostly played by "bad" players that don't do research. This has been shown over and over, for ice mage etc.

2) Instead of All Bosses, which tells us approximately nothing useful, instead choose specific bosses. You'll see that different talents (including SND) perform differently in different situations.

With regard to SND, sims have shown that at certain gear levels (given high t19, a high frond, and high cof, COS ring) SND can out-perform RTB, but this is not true for all situations!

Yea, wondering why everyone is so surprised by SnD being good / better than MfD. My calculations showed that like 2 weeks ago, didn't you guys sim it through or did it somehow still sim lower?

[MaryJay]

Yeah, your raidmates need to l2p, because they should be dunking on you.

See, that's the thing about logs. They show that at highest play level, sin and sub are stomping outlaw (and other classes, too) in every scenario. Not sims, actual logs, fights that have occurred since tos launched. You can't call them "fake news" because they actually happened as documented.

Now, if we are low at highest play level, what does that say for us at lower levels? That we don't have much room to improve.

T20 is terrible for us.

So I'll say this, because it apparently bears reminding:

Your anecdotal evidence means nothing. Actual logs showing outlaw performance versus other specs is the best days available for the health of the specs overall.

I call ppl in theese logs and you for beleiving them noobs. Its always the case in mmo's max whiners on forums are max noobs.
And It has been the case in NH aswell properly played outlaw was near top always.
But forum hamsters are blind and still think bracers are the best lego for example Ofc how can you argue logs and Icy veins told you that you pray on that.

T20 is total shit tho

[Slaygeist]

Unfortunately it is just *that bad*, but players that reached out to Blizz about it got told that their sims were wrong, their logs are bad, and their theorycrafting is garbage. Which seems to be the standard issue response. "Thanks for being so passionate about our game! Your math and work is bad, everybody is wrong except us, and no, we won't publish our methods, data, and so on to show you why."

That is insane. I'm completely bummed about Tomb now.

[Sephiroso]

That is insane. I'm completely bummed about Tomb now.

As with everything, sim your character. I had 3 890 t19 and 1 905.

I got 2 pc t20 that's 905 and 915 and dropping 4pc t19 for 2pc t19 and 2pc t20 was a dps increase of like 13k. Shoulders/insignia.

[Slaygeist]

As with everything, sim your character. I had 3 890 t19 and 1 905.

I got 2 pc t20 that's 905 and 915 and dropping 4pc t19 for 2pc t19 and 2pc t20 was a dps increase of like 13k. Shoulders/insignia.

If you read my original post you would see that I had already done so, multiple times. It's a DPS loss for me.

[permp]

Im trying to do the mage tower challenge and it seems really "impossible".

I watch some videos and the guys make it so smooth without the aghata reach high stacks and kill the adds really fast but when i try she always on 20 stacks+ and always combo the shield+healing adds and kills me.

Any suggestions? i am using prydaz and legs but i never feint only sprint to use the free feint.

[Vojka]

Im trying to do the mage tower challenge and it seems really "impossible".

I watch some videos and the guys make it so smooth without the aghata reach high stacks and kill the adds really fast but when i try she always on 20 stacks+ and always combo the shield+healing adds and kills me.

Any suggestions? i am using prydaz and legs but i never feint only sprint to use the free feint.

Make sure you have acrobatic strikes and swordmaster, I would blade flurry and nuke her in the opener and the adds would die just from the flurry. But after that you need to make sure you kills the adds fast, i would use Thraxis combined with Bear Tartare and spamming MFD/Runthrough with blade flurry made quick work on adds.

Ultimately though, I only know 2 other outlaw rogues personally that have done it and - like me - the surefire way we were successful was that we got at least one 6 roll during the fight, ideally <50% and you can pretty much overpower her and just tunnel her before adds get out of control especially if you have curse ready. Keep in mind this was pre 7.2.5 so I wouldn't know what its like now, but once you get the strat down you pretty much need a 6 roll or at the very least a string of strong consistent rolls, one of the other rogues I know just melted her because he got 3 6 rolls in his attempt, basically rng has to be on your side.

I don't have the feint heal legs (using them would be a waste of energy and GCD anyway, imo) but my kill attempt I had thraxis and prydaz if that helps, best of luck.