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  1. #1

    10man K'J overtuned / not tested?

    Earlier this week I cleared almost all of ToS with a 10man group... until we got to Kil'jaeden. We ended up inviting a third healer and a couple of more dps and killed him next pull. I figured they just made the last boss mechanically overloaded, compared to the rest of the fights, like they did with Gul'dan in Nighthold. But Tonight while doing a 20man Kil'jaeden I noticed that only 5 people were targeted with Bursting Dreadflame... Why's that a problem? Because on 10man, 5 people were also targeted with Bursting Dreadflame. Seems like this would be an ability where the number of targets would scale based on the raids size.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    Why's that a problem? Because on 10man, 5 people were also targeted with Bursting Dreadflame. Seems like this would be an ability where the number of targets would scale based on the raids size.
    This is a common issue with new raids - every time. Same thing happened in EN and NH (and probably before, but I wouldn't know - was raiding in 20man team in WoD).
    Debuff mechanics that target raid members don't scale and it seems Blizzard "forgets" to tune them for different group sizes (or rather, they don't really give a fuck about Normal/Heroic tuning). I'm sure they'll hotfix some of the worst ones after enough people complain - that seems to be their way of handling this.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Breezy Badger View Post
    This is a common issue with new raids - every time. Same thing happened in EN and NH (and probably before, but I wouldn't know - was raiding in 20man team in WoD).
    Debuff mechanics that target raid members don't scale and it seems Blizzard "forgets" to tune them for different group sizes (or rather, they don't really give a fuck about Normal/Heroic tuning). I'm sure they'll hotfix some of the worst ones after enough people complain - that seems to be their way of handling this.
    Yeah, I recall that being the case in EN and NH as well. I just figured 3rd time's the charm and they'd actually bother to fully test their prime raid of the expansion.
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  4. #4
    As stated above this has been an issue since the release of flexible raids.

    As blizzard tells you its okay to go 10man but mostly they tuned the raids for 15-20ppl in terms of mechanics and dmg.

    So going with 20ppl at around 905ilvl will have bigger benefit to you and your raid then going with 10ppl with 905ilvl.

  5. #5
    Armageddon scales really well with raid size. Bursting Dreadflames is really minor compared to Armageddon. Bursting could also scale, but at least Armageddon does.

  6. #6
    Same shit as Archimonde because those two are brothers in the end.

  7. #7
    KJ is a shit show with larger raid sizes to.(if you have pugs or people who can't communicate well with each other)

    14-17 is the sweet spot on this guy.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    I disagree - KJ isnt really much harder at low raid sizes.

    Remember you also have a lot more room to spread with bursting dreadflame. And the armageddon is really easy to manage with a small raid. But if you just want to thread to bash on blizzard ill be sure to stay out of it from here.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeepsneeft View Post
    I disagree - KJ isnt really much harder at low raid sizes.

    Remember you also have a lot more room to spread with bursting dreadflame. And the armageddon is really easy to manage with a small raid. But if you just want to thread to bash on blizzard ill be sure to stay out of it from here.
    Wow the fan boy is strong in you.

    He made a statement that his opinion was that it made a difference. I don't see him ranting and raving at blizzard about it. This was not a thread about bashing blizzard.

    OT; Having cleared normal with 25 people last night I found we didn't have an issue. Would need to see it downsized to form a better opinion.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    Earlier this week I cleared almost all of ToS with a 10man group... until we got to Kil'jaeden. We ended up inviting a third healer and a couple of more dps and killed him next pull. I figured they just made the last boss mechanically overloaded, compared to the rest of the fights, like they did with Gul'dan in Nighthold. But Tonight while doing a 20man Kil'jaeden I noticed that only 5 people were targeted with Bursting Dreadflame... Why's that a problem? Because on 10man, 5 people were also targeted with Bursting Dreadflame. Seems like this would be an ability where the number of targets would scale based on the raids size.
    This concern has carried over from the Nighthold.
    My guild attempted KJ heroic progression last night (was OT as blood dk) with a 10-man group on an off-raid day. It seems the numbers are all too heavily scaled for a group size that small. Granted we attempted it with average group ilv of 910 while guilds killing it are around 919-920 ilv average, the fight still seemed way too tight for a heroic encounter.
    Especially the darkness phase where you need to find Illidan to remove your absorb shields and kill the adds - If you're far from your healers while searching for illidan, good luck surviving. For a group size that has a maximum of 2 healers, the incoming damage numbers seem a tad bit too high. Not to forget the boss' health scaling is also too much for a 10man group. We had to face a second set of fel claws before first transition and 3 sets of fel claws before second transition in a group with average dps of 900k-1mil.
    Hopefully we see a round of numbers tuning this week even though the mythic week patch notes have already gone out.

    Will be goin at it again tonight, hopefully we get him down :|

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulForge View Post
    Wow the fan boy is strong in you.

    He made a statement that his opinion was that it made a difference. I don't see him ranting and raving at blizzard about it. This was not a thread about bashing blizzard.

    OT; Having cleared normal with 25 people last night I found we didn't have an issue. Would need to see it downsized to form a better opinion.
    Did it last night as well, on heroic. With 25 people. I can easily say, if we dropped about 8 or so people, not because of lack of skill or anything, but to just give more room and space, it would have helped a shit ton.

    There's definitely a sweet spot with numbers, not too small, not too big.

  12. #12
    Try KJ HC 30man and then complain.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyone01 View Post
    Try KJ HC 30man and then complain.
    So much shit to soak, so little place to spread.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Imagine how easy it would be if it only targeted 2 people with 10 players, it targets a certain amount to only give you a certain amount of room. arguably, it should do lower damage with less people to the person with the main debuff, but I don't know how it works. The hardest mechanic for most guilds is armageddon, as it requires every player to be competant to deal with it, and theres more room for fuck up with a larger raid size due to personal responsibility.

  15. #15
    off topic;

    how frequent is the BIG Armageddon circle being cast? reading the guide I see it hits for initial 24 mil physical on norm . armor takes it to 12 mil, double stack of marrowrend takes it down to 8mil, and which ever CD I'll use is supposed to deal with the rest (got 6.4 mil HP unbuffed). basically, I want to know the timing so I can plan my CDs.

    thanks

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by leorana View Post
    off topic;

    how frequent is the BIG Armageddon circle being cast? reading the guide I see it hits for initial 24 mil physical on norm . armor takes it to 12 mil, double stack of marrowrend takes it down to 8mil, and which ever CD I'll use is supposed to deal with the rest (got 6.4 mil HP unbuffed). basically, I want to know the timing so I can plan my CDs.

    thanks
    You shouldn't be soaking it, dps should be using immunities. And last resort tank.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    Earlier this week I cleared almost all of ToS with a 10man group... until we got to Kil'jaeden. We ended up inviting a third healer and a couple of more dps and killed him next pull. I figured they just made the last boss mechanically overloaded, compared to the rest of the fights, like they did with Gul'dan in Nighthold. But Tonight while doing a 20man Kil'jaeden I noticed that only 5 people were targeted with Bursting Dreadflame... Why's that a problem? Because on 10man, 5 people were also targeted with Bursting Dreadflame. Seems like this would be an ability where the number of targets would scale based on the raids size.
    Hmmm, I pug'd a 12 man KJ (not 10, but close enough) and didn't really notice any higher difficulty than when I did it with 25 people with my guild.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeepsneeft View Post
    I disagree - KJ isnt really much harder at low raid sizes.

    Remember you also have a lot more room to spread with bursting dreadflame. And the armageddon is really easy to manage with a small raid. But if you just want to thread to bash on blizzard ill be sure to stay out of it from here.
    lets say you have 12 players

    1 tanks the boss and sould not move to mutch with his cleave
    3 players will be target by adds and needs to stack on boss
    that leaves you with 8 players to soak 5 pools - how meney of thise players do you think get 2 or 3 stacks of the debuff by now?

    Was relly stressfull to try him with 12 players

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Is this heroic? Cause i cleared him on normal on my alt with a 10man.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Is this heroic? Cause i cleared him on normal on my alt with a 10man.
    yeah , on normal you can jsut outheal everything if you fail a few mecanics

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