Seattle’s Minimum Wage Hike May Have Gone Too Far

[LMuhlen]

Because they kicked him out as soon as he turned 18. Or charged him rent. Or are abusive alcoholics. Or are poor themselves and can't financially support their children any longer. Or are dead, or estranged, or any number of dozens of reasons.

Best way to learn how to swim is to be thrown to the middle of a river. So I heard

[Kathandira]

why wouldnt parent support someone who is incapable of dealing with life by himself ?

Can't if they are dead, or live in another country, or are in jail, or disowned, or just hate you for who you are. Plus other reasons i'm likely not thinking of, but do exist.

Not everyone has a loving family. And in the U.S. around 50% of parents are divorced. They may not have a place for you to stay because they didn't move into a new home with the intentions of accommodating you if you need to move back in.

- - - Updated - - -

Minimum wage is a Democratic tool to keep people poor. Do you wonder why regardless of Democrat talk every Democrat led City/State is starting to crumble into Bankruptcy? The policies don't work.

How would you feel if minimum wage was removed?

- - - Updated - - -

Best way to learn how to swim is to be thrown to the middle of a river. So I heard

swimming is fine, swimming with cement blocks (also know as student loans) tied to your legs is not.

[hydrium]

- - - Updated - - -



How would you feel if minimum wage was removed?

- - - Updated - - -

I'd be pretty happy. Min Wage laws increase the pricing of goods, decrease the labor force and cut the hours of those who remain employed decreasing overall wealth for the lowest common denominator in America forcing them to supplement themselves with Government programs, thus increasing their dependence upon the state and giving them less choice when it comes to political decisions because it forces them to be one issue voters where they are reliant upon the party that wants to maintain/increase the benefits.

[Kellhound]

It doesn't matter... 10% is 10%. As long as your wages go up by a higher % than the costs, you're better off.



This is a really bad example. You're saying someone was making ~1667 before the raise and was spending 1200 on rent? Also, are we talking weekly, bi-weekly or monthly increase of 300? You seem to not understand how percentages work.

If you're making X/month and we increase that by 18% then you're now making 1.18X/ month. If we're spending Y/month and that goes up by 10% then you're now spending 1.1Y/month. So, before we had X-Y left a month and now we have 1.18X-1.1Y=.08X+1.1X-1.1Y=.08X+1.1(X-Y)>X-Y as long as X>.556Y, or as long as your income was more than 55% of your costs. So, we still have more money left than we did before even if ALL your costs go up by 10%.

- - - Updated - - -



Demand doesn't really change for necessities. Because they're necessities. People are already buying them regardless. Everyone knows inflation exists, but you keep acting like the price increase of goods will offset the wage increase and it won't and never has. Buying power would increase.

If your income goes up by 18% ($11 to $13) you earn about $300 more a month. If your rent of $1200 goes up by 10% that equals $120. $120 is 40% of $300. Thus a 10% rent increase has reduced your raise to $180. Of course you actually didnt have an increase of net income of $300 because of taxes, so kiss another $27 goodbye (if you have dependants, figure $57 if you dont). You are now at $153. Oh, but because your income increased, your food stamps decrease, so you lost $73 for that. You are now down to $80. Lop another $20 for other expense increases. So at the end of the day, if you are lucky, your $2 pay increase nets you about $0.40. Better than nothing, but not by much. Most of it has gone to lining the pockets of the rich and to prop up Social Security.

And yes, when you make minimum wage and do not have housing assistance (wait listed!), almost all of your pay can easily go to housing. And THAT is the real issue, housing costs. (Plus the reduction of benefits).

[Deleted]

why wouldnt parent support someone who is incapable of dealing with life by himself ? all you woudl loose/miss would be oportunities to get laid and party in favour of saving $ for apartment - seems like a good deal for a poor person as such person wouldt be able to support having family/kids anyway.

poor people need to stop trying to live like middle class - they arent middle class so they shoudl adapt to life style of poor person. would save them a lot of stress.

Is it possible to disenfranchise people who are this far away from reality?

[Kellhound]

Minimum wage is a Democratic tool to keep people poor. Do you wonder why regardless of Democrat talk every Democrat led City/State is starting to crumble into Bankruptcy? The policies don't work.

The biggest issue most are facing is retirement funds constantly being a massive draining ponzi scheme.

[Elegiac]

I'd be pretty happy. Min Wage laws increase the pricing of goods, decrease the labor force and cut the hours of those who remain employed decreasing overall wealth for the lowest common denominator in America forcing them to supplement themselves with Government programs, thus increasing their dependence upon the state and giving them less choice when it comes to political decisions because it forces them to be one issue voters where they are reliant upon the party that wants to maintain/increase the benefits.

"Paying people more makes them poorer."

This argument has been debunked repeatedly and has never been true in human history, or in any country.

[Endus]

If your income goes up by 18% ($11 to $13) you earn about $300 more a month. If your rent of $1200 goes up by 10% that equals $120. $120 is 40% of $300. Thus a 10% rent increase has reduced your raise to $180. Of course you actually didnt have an increase of net income of $300 because of taxes, so kiss another $27 goodbye (if you have dependants, figure $57 if you dont). You are now at $153. Oh, but because your income increased, your food stamps decrease, so you lost $73 for that. You are now down to $80. Lop another $20 for other expense increases. So at the end of the day, if you are lucky, your $2 pay increase nets you about $0.40. Better than nothing, but not by much. Most of it has gone to lining the pockets of the rich and to prop up Social Security.

And yes, when you make minimum wage and do not have housing assistance (wait listed!), almost all of your pay can easily go to housing. And THAT is the real issue, housing costs. (Plus the reduction of benefits).

You're just making these numbers up, right? Because they don't line up with my napkin math.

And a quick check of SNAP eligibility requirements show that a single person making $11/hour doesn't qualify for SNAP benefits to begin with.

If you have an issue with "lining the pockets of the rich", you're arguing against a capitalist economic system, not minimum wage laws.

And yes; people earning more pay more in taxes to pay for social security and such; that doesn't reduce the net gains to zero, as you yourself admit.

[Alydael]

Of course it did.

It just isn't worth it to pay 15$/hour for a low end job.

It sounds all "fair" and "just," but the numbers will never add up and running a business is a number's game so the owners have to go with the numbers.

Numbers don't lie.

[Kaibhan]

Of course it did.

It just isn't worth it to pay 15$/hour for a low end job.

It sounds all "fair" and "just," but the numbers will never add up and running a business is a number's game so the owners have to go with the numbers.

Numbers don't lie.

Numbers don't like but people presenting the numbers do. It doesn't take much to see that this study is missing a ton of relevant information. Like for instance that companies with over 500 employees are actually making a couple dollars an hour more and those stores weren't even included in the study. This was only mom and pop shops. It wouldn't take a rocket surgeon to think that someone would rather work at Starbucks making $13 an hour rather than at Larrys House of Pig Shit making $11. Using the Berkley study that came out at the same time which includes all of the stores shows the same thing every study has shown at these modest minimum wage hikes. Things are perfectly fine overall. Not saying that hurting mom and pops shops isn't a problem just illustrating how this study and the people presenting it are simply presenting the numbers to say what they want them to say.

[belfpala]

Numbers don't lie.

It's easy to lie with numbers.

[Elegiac]

Of course it did.

It just isn't worth it to pay 15$/hour for a low end job.

It sounds all "fair" and "just," but the numbers will never add up and running a business is a number's game so the owners have to go with the numbers.

Numbers don't lie.

If you as a business owner cannot afford to pay your workers adequately then you shouldn't be owning a business. Period.

[Captain N]

If you as a business owner cannot afford to pay your workers adequately then you shouldn't be owning a business. Period.

Business Owner: I wan't a friendly, educated, and hard-working person to help me in my store!

Possible Employee: I have all those qualifications, and I want a fair and livable wage based on all those!

Business Owner: Whoa now! Your skills and education aren't worth that much! You'll put me out of business!


This is how I picture every person who thinks it's OK to short change their employees because they own a business. A business that actually has a higher rate of failure in neighborhoods with lower household incomes...but that's another discussion all together.

[Ooid]

If you as a business owner cannot afford to pay your workers adequately then you shouldn't be owning a business. Period.

Sure we can pay those workers more, those workers will just work less hours and have more responsibilities thrust on them to make up for the loss of a few co-workers. There is always a way to fuck over the worker, raise the minimum wage and there'll be fewer jobs with shittier hours.
Don't mistake me for being against giving people a better wage, I'm just realistic.

[Elegiac]

Sure we can pay those workers more, those workers will just work less hours and have more responsibilities thrust on them to make up for the loss of a few co-workers. There is always a way to fuck over the worker, raise the minimum wage and they'll be fewer jobs with shittier hours.
Don't mistake me for being against giving people a better wage, I'm just realistic.

No, you're not. Because this phenomenon has never been observed in any country that has had a minimum wage that has been raised.

What -actually- happens is the increased buying power inflates demand which means businesses have to acquire more employees to keep up.

Do you actually understand how employment works as a function of market demand? I'd say no.

[Sorrior]

Except we know trickle down doesn't work. Especially with regards to a livable wage. You have to legislate that shit or business owners worry more about themselves than their employees.

Or habe strong enough unions. If anything job market competition would lower workers pay not increase it.

[Ooid]

No, you're not. Because this phenomenon has never been observed in any country that has had a minimum wage that has been raised.

What -actually- happens is the increased buying power inflates demand which means businesses have to acquire more employees to keep up.

Do you actually understand how employment works as a function of market demand? I'd say no.

Probably not, no.

[Elegiac]

Probably not, no.

Then don't make ignorant comments.

[Captain N]

Or habe strong enough unions. If anything job market competition would lower workers pay not increase it.

You have to first convince people that Union dues and collective bargaining are to the advantage of the entire workforce as opposed to the long-standing myths that surround unionization. Spend enough time here in Gen-OT and you'll hear everything about how union employees cannot be fired, how they support lazy people, and my personal favorite that union dues are another form of taxation and therefor theft.

It's why we have these stupid minimum wage discussions every other month -- People have been so blinded into believing that they can negotiate their wages on their own that they think that their $16/hour is some fantastic wage that they worked hard and got educated...and skilled to get. Now they're threatened because a group of low wage workers has united nationwide fighting for $15/hour minimum and it's starting to take hold in many major cities (and some states completely). It's a perfect example of why "I did this on my own" doesn't have quite the effect as "We did this together"

[kamuimac]

It's why we have these stupid minimum wage discussions every other month -- People have been so blinded into believing that they can negotiate their wages on their own that they think that their $16/hour is some fantastic wage that they worked hard and got educated...and skilled to get. Now they're threatened because a group of low wage workers has united nationwide fighting for $15/hour minimum and it's starting to take hold in many major cities (and some states completely). It's a perfect example of why "I did this on my own" doesn't have quite the effect as "We did this together"

did it ever occur to you that people who are against it make much more then 16 $/hour because they educated themselves and thus deserve more ?

nah better call for communism where dude who flips burgers make as much as neurosurgeon because all shoudl be equal ye ?