NO BUFFS to retribution

[Tojara]

They really need a buff to their ST. It's odd cause historically retribution is usually middling in ST or are strong in ST, with periods of strong cleave (depending on expansion) but relatively weak AoE. Right now the AoE is actually there, but the ST is really awful.

Not sure what the issue is. Half of me thinks that the data Blizzard gets skews retribution simply because of the retribution buff. Even if they are honest and truly aren't balancing around that perk, I don't trust them enough to dig through the data to arrive at that conclusion. Lets be clear. Retribution with timely deaths of raid members is actually an "okay" spec, the problem is, outside of very niche circumstances that tactic really isn't going to be used. Parsing as a retribution paladin at the moment is entirely reliant on other people dying, as somebody dying at the later parts of the crusade window boosts DPS by quite a bit.

The biggest solution would be to simply buff the class all around and modify the retribution passive. Keep the DR in tact and nuke the damage portion entirely or just by a considerable amount.

[Logwyn]

Is there any reason that Blizzard does do something like the following:

Make there be a max cap of DPS. Lets just say 1 million. So in any fight no one can go above 1 million. Yes you will be able to get higher but no damage above this does anything.
Then if a spec isn't hitting 1 million then just buff it so that it will hit 1 million or over.

If everyone can hit 1 million then dps is balanced. If not they adjust till you can hit 1 million.

[wink-]

Is there any reason that Blizzard does do something like the following:

Make there be a max cap of DPS. Lets just say 1 million. So in any fight no one can go above 1 million. Yes you will be able to get higher but no damage above this does anything.
Then if a spec isn't hitting 1 million then just buff it so that it will hit 1 million or over.

If everyone can hit 1 million then dps is balanced. If not they adjust till you can hit 1 million.

What is the fun in that? You play to beat other people and then pound your chest while you like the meters.

[Deleted]

What is the fun in that? You play to beat other people and then pound your chest while you like the meters.

I actually play to kill bosses. -.-

The meters culture gets out of hand sometimes. Besides, with his sugetion that would still happen. You read it too fast i think.

Quite honestly, these tuning situations are the worst and affect everyone direly. Having a way to garantee that you are taken for who you are rather than the flavor of the month woukd be very beneficial for everyone.

And besides... what is even the point of topping meters with the strongest class? I get no kick out of that, that's for sure.

[Morally Grey Storm]

There will always be specs at the bottom. I see no reason why it shouldnt be ret.

There will always be specs at the top. I see no reason why it shouldnt be ret.

[Deleted]

There will always be specs at the bottom. I see no reason why it shouldnt be ret.

The problem isn't beeing in the bottom, though it would make more sense for classes that have multiple specs and can swap around specs to better spots.

But, the problem is the delta between top and bottom. At this level of numbers, a 200k difference equals about 15-20% difference in output. That makes a huge difference when trying to down difficult content.

[shaunika123]

LOL at your hybrid tax, it's so 2004 you make me want to play my PS2 again.

Also applying your hybrid tax pov, I think all tanks must be bad, because there's no pure tank classes so they can fill different roles. Same logic to heals, we can't have good healing classes in game, because you know, all healers are also hybrids so they must be bad too!!!

You can go now to your hunter forums with pride: your hybrid taxing resolved WoW balance problems.

to be fair you have shittons of utility so not being on top isnt exactly that huge of a loss for you
plus your AOE is still insane and like half of the fights in tos have AOE

not saying rets couldnt do with a small buff, but it's not like you're WW monks afterall

[Dugna]

to be fair you have shittons of utility so not being on top isnt exactly that huge of a loss for you
plus your AOE is still insane and like half of the fights in tos have AOE

What Utility? You mean wisdom? Like that matters at all, BoP isn't used for much in general in this game and has very niche situations, we have slow mobility so we couldn't charge to a mob to kill it in time without losing tons of dps. Divine Shield doesn't mean much when even classes like DH can do that job or soaking things with immunity.

Why do you think almost every damn raid tier that a rogue or mage is brought to cheese mechs and not a pally? because our utility is shit and even if you can bring up a niche for anything ret has, Holy has it and better, Lay on hands? Better for holy, BoP? even with our trait to reduce the cd still better for prot. Divine shield? doesn't matter because you have DH, Mage, Rogues to cheese those things. The only consistent "Utility" we have is ret is wisdom and that only stretches so far till it that extra mana doesn't matter.

Everything ret does in terms of "utiility" can be brought by a Holy pally, so yes Ret doing bad dps does matter.

[Element]

to be fair you have shittons of utility so not being on top isnt exactly that huge of a loss for you
plus your AOE is still insane and like half of the fights in tos have AOE

not saying rets couldnt do with a small buff, but it's not like you're WW monks afterall

Warcraft logs disagrees with your logic.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#difficulty=4

Yes it's heroic, because very few are in Mythic. It's also an average of our damage across all bosses, so when you say "your AOE is still INSANE" apparently you missed the part where it's not insane enough to balance out the very bad ST performance we have.

Our AoE is fine, our ST is very lacking.

[Morally Grey Storm]

to be fair you have shittons of utility so not being on top isnt exactly that huge of a loss for you
plus your AOE is still insane and like half of the fights in tos have AOE

not saying rets couldnt do with a small buff, but it's not like you're WW monks afterall

No, we don't. We have none.
And no, our AoE is not "insane", as in - not the best.
And no(3rd time is the charm, huh), ToS is almost exclusively ST-oriented raid dungeon, barring 3 bosses out of 9.

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In short, you are fething wrong, get your shit straight before trying to barge in here.

[shaunika123]

No, we don't. We have none.
And no, our AoE is not "insane", as in - not the best.
And no(3rd time is the charm, huh), ToS is almost exclusively ST-oriented raid dungeon, barring 3 bosses out of 9.

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In short, you are fething wrong, get your shit straight before trying to barge in here.

so, wisdom, bop, loh, bubble, the occasional freedom are not utility? wisdom is ridiculously useful in progression if you dont think it is then you only killed stuff after overgearing it.
you can use bop for tons of stuff in ToS, like soaking the big aoe on KJ for example, bubble again can be used to solo soak tons of stuff
it's 4 out of 9 bosses btw
and yes it's insane once you get the sisters trinket, seriously that shit's busted for ret


and if you notice ive said that you could do with a buff, all im saying is that if people can use the "ya'll still got feint" excuse for my class whenever it sucks, then i can use the "ya'll got wisdom and bop" for yours.

[Dugna]

so, wisdom, bop, loh, bubble, the occasional freedom are not utility? wisdom is ridiculously useful in progression if you dont think it is then you only killed stuff after overgearing it.
you can use bop for tons of stuff in ToS, like soaking the big aoe on KJ for example, bubble again can be used to solo soak tons of stuff
it's 4 out of 9 bosses btw
and yes it's insane once you get the sisters trinket, seriously that shit's busted for ret


and if you notice ive said that you could do with a buff, all im saying is that if people can use the "ya'll still got feint" excuse for my class whenever it sucks, then i can use the "ya'll got wisdom and bop" for yours.

wisdom again is the only ret exclusive thing, BoP, LoH, and bubble can be brought by a holy pally or in the case of bubble another class that has better dps, also wisdom is not ridiculously powerful, if it was then mythic guldan for example would've brought all rets for its cleave when they didn't. Wisdom's usefulness stops after you don't have the dps to benefit from it.

Ohh and rogues will always be the cheese class that brings the dps to make up for any shortcomings, rogues are consistently either in the top tanks or the top dps itself.

[Morally Grey Storm]

so, wisdom, bop, loh, bubble, the occasional freedom are not utility? wisdom is ridiculously useful in progression if you dont think it is then you only killed stuff after overgearing it.
you can use bop for tons of stuff in ToS, like soaking the big aoe on KJ for example, bubble again can be used to solo soak tons of stuff
it's 4 out of 9 bosses btw
and yes it's insane once you get the sisters trinket, seriously that shit's busted for ret


and if you notice ive said that you could do with a buff, all im saying is that if people can use the "ya'll still got feint" excuse for my class whenever it sucks, then i can use the "ya'll got wisdom and bop" for yours.

No, they are not. And they barely see use, not to mention prot and holy have these things aswell, but with shorter cd/longer duration/more actually useful ones like hosac/hospellwarding/hosalv.
Soaking KJ is barely a point, because hunters and mages can do it aswell as Holy and prot can provide BoP. So, there goes said (f)utility.
And last, but least, A little bit greater blessing of wisdom. It is not that strong to begin with. It won't make it break a fight. If it does for you, it means your raid is wanting. Do you see Retribution sought after because of wisdom? No, you don't. Because it's not detrimental. But what is, is performance. And Retribution is lacking fir no reason.
Take commanding shout for example. A strong cd? Sure. Raidwide to boot. Dies it handicap or hinder warrior's performance in any way, shape or form? Why? Why Retribution is treated differently?

[Jester Joe]

wisdom again is the only ret exclusive thing, BoP, LoH, and bubble can be brought by a holy pally or in the case of bubble another class that has better dps, also wisdom is not ridiculously powerful, if it was then mythic guldan for example would've brought all rets for its cleave when they didn't. Wisdom's usefulness stops after you don't have the dps to benefit from it.

Ohh and rogues will always be the cheese class that brings the dps to make up for any shortcomings, rogues are consistently either in the top tanks or the top dps itself.

And if you're bringing Ret just for Wisdom, could just bring a Balance druid instead for innervate.

[Dugna]

And if you're bringing Ret just for Wisdom, could just bring a Balance druid instead for innervate.

yep, overall they have homogenized tons of things, so if you're in the role of dps for you to be brought you need to bring the numbers.

[shaunika123]

And if you're bringing Ret just for Wisdom, could just bring a Balance druid instead for innervate.

the two arent mutually exclusive

and as someone who progressed all of mythic NH without wisdom and now we have one all i can tell you (well not me but our healer) is that he's literally drooling all over the retri pala over how much better it is

but again: im all for rets getting buffs, they need a couple % in pure dps
but they're still okay

imagine how the WW monks feel
and after last nights hotfixes the differences between classes are probably smaller than they've ever been

[Jester Joe]

the two arent mutually exclusive

and as someone who progressed all of mythic NH without wisdom and now we have one all i can tell you (well not me but our healer) is that he's literally drooling all over the retri pala over how much better it is

but again: im all for rets getting buffs, they need a couple % in pure dps
but they're still okay

imagine how the WW monks feel
and after last nights hotfixes the differences between classes are probably smaller than they've ever been

They're not exactly the same, but they serve the same purpose.

I mean, log wise it appears balance druids are quite far ahead of ret, so if you're killing the boss faster, the slower assistance of Wisdom isn't really as helpful, since you know, healers aren't going to burn through as much mana compared to a longer fight, and if you have an intense healing phase, Innervate is going to be a hell of a lot more useful.

[Morally Grey Storm]

but again: im all for rets getting buffs, they need a couple % in pure dps
but they're still okay

No, we are not.

[Reith]

to be fair you have shittons of utility so not being on top isnt exactly that huge of a loss for you
plus your AOE is still insane and like half of the fights in tos have AOE

not saying rets couldnt do with a small buff, but it's not like you're WW monks afterall

Windwalker is actually getting a buff, and nobody argued here that Windwalker shouldn't be buffed. Also, 4/9 of the fights have AOE, and two of those fights we're at the bottom of the upper end. The other two we're middle of the pack. The rest, we're around the bottom.

[Reith]

so, wisdom, bop, loh, bubble, the occasional freedom are not utility? wisdom is ridiculously useful in progression if you dont think it is then you only killed stuff after overgearing it.
you can use bop for tons of stuff in ToS, like soaking the big aoe on KJ for example, bubble again can be used to solo soak tons of stuff
it's 4 out of 9 bosses btw
and yes it's insane once you get the sisters trinket, seriously that shit's busted for ret


and if you notice ive said that you could do with a buff, all im saying is that if people can use the "ya'll still got feint" excuse for my class whenever it sucks, then i can use the "ya'll got wisdom and bop" for yours.

You're a Rogue, you have literally nothing to complain about in terms of DPS.

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I thought we were clearly AT the bottom of ST fights. Did something change?

Some percentages we're slightly ahead of Windwalker/Frost. Still basically at the bottom, and that's only because of Retribution passive we're beating them in some percentages at all for single target.