Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Hellborne87]

I feel bad for Frost DK's who don't have Unholy leggos to or the desire to switch. However, this was pretty obvious this was coming. The loss of rime tier bonus pretty much looked like the end of the world to me, several weeks ago then they topped it off with a nerf to the BR relic, for good measure.

So far, parses look exactly how I imagined them. Frost on bottom and Unholy near the top / upper middle. This is what happens when you basically lose on-demand aoe, scale like shit, and have a weak toolkit.

[Coldvibes]

I don't feel bad for them at all. The really good frost dks that stayed frost already have established spots in their respective raid teams and have already proven their worth regardless of spec. If you still want to play frost and your guild is telling you to retool that just means you weren't playing very well in the first place. If the unholy 4 piece design, massive DA buff and miscellaneous aura buffs during ptr didn't clue you in about how strong unholy was going to be then I have no idea what to say.

[Baddok21]

I don't feel bad for them at all. The really good frost dks that stayed frost already have established spots in their respective raid teams and have already proven their worth regardless of spec. If you still want to play frost and your guild is telling you to retool that just means you weren't playing very well in the first place. If the unholy 4 piece design, massive DA buff and miscellaneous aura buffs during ptr didn't clue you in about how strong unholy was going to be then I have no idea what to say.

lets also take the time to acknowledge Frost is less than 5% behind Unholy across the board, I mean If its gotten to the point were frost doing 1.1mil DPS to Unholies 1.2mil is the end of the world than were seriously crying over spilled milk here.

though i will say this could end up much worse since every top FDK is running some combination of 2pc+4pc whether its 2pc T19 4pc T20 or vise versa, and that will simply be hard to keep upto date as we move into Mythic and start passing 930 ilvl.

[Bisque]

I would argue that good game design or at least what blizzard is capable of means that both specs are some what close to each other and not "well frost was good in NH, now its UH's turn, then argus back to frost again". And the same goes for the loc specs, the mage specs etc...The philosophy should not be "Y was good last tier-screw Y, so now X gets it's turn in the sun".

Perhaps its a bit early to judge, so lets see.

[leorana]

I solely play my DK and I still only have around 12 legendaries total, so this is pretty untrue.

Actually think its 10...9 for frost (All minus Sephuz) and Unholy Bracers.

I also play solely my DK (blood/frost). the only spec specifics I got are blood bracers, trinket and ring, and frost's new chest (which also counts as unholy). that's a total of 4. problem is I also rolled agrammar's boots, prydaz which is actually like). so in reality I have 6 legenderies, in theory (based on BLP) I should have had 11....which is not the case.


also...did normal avatar today along with 4 more frost DKs in the group. I did a whooping 500K with 905 gear while less geared fury warr did 700K . we wiped and ALL 4 DKs were kicked. stupid warr bragged about his DPS compared to the DKs, even after I explained to him why this is a bad fight for us (no mobilty) and told him to check logs. so after I've done good enough DPS and followed mechanics on all previous 6 bosses I got kicked in the end for being a Frost dk.

[Gathed]

I explained to him why this is a bad fight for us (no mobilty) and told him to check logs. so after I've done good enough DPS and followed mechanics on all previous 6 bosses I got kicked in the end for being a Frost dk.

That is not a bad fight for us, stop perpetuating utter bs. The only time your numbers should dip is in P2 when avatar is running back to the platform which all melee cop.

[Icedcoffeee]

That is not a bad fight for us, stop perpetuating utter bs. The only time your numbers should dip is in P2 when avatar is running back to the platform which all melee cop.

Avatar is a pretty bad fight for us. Probably the worst in the instance.

[exeetor]

Avatar Phase 2 is bad. Phase 1 is just dps boss more or less.
P2 is mostly bad cause we cant get back in melee with the boss quick due to the knockback. Rest of the melees are screwed same as us during his walking back into melee after is big aoe.

[leorana]

Avatar Phase 2 is bad. Phase 1 is just dps boss more or less.
P2 is mostly bad cause we cant get back in melee with the boss quick due to the knockback. Rest of the melees are screwed same as us during his walking back into melee after is big aoe.

same as us?

so you don't think that warriors charge, or havoc fel rush, or even cat form assist other melee to close the gap (even in phase 1) on a shorter CD? let's say, back from rupture realities, or when you need to switch to maiden and such? same applies in phase 2 when you need to get back in melee.

I wasn't being kicked based on p1 performance, got kicked for poor DPS for both phases combined.

I don't have any trouble to say: "I'm casual/bad", but fact remains that all 4 of the frost DKs were way sub-par from other DPS (both melee and especially ranged). just look at logs and tell me how fare we rank (let's say 75 percentile - ish) compared to other classes on this fight.

[RiB]

In P1 you can AMS every rupture and stand at about 1/2 distance to take nearly 0 damage in heroic. In normal you may be able to stand closer, but I can't remember how much it does on normal.
In P2 he ruptures quicker so you can't do that every time. And all melee needs to wait for the boss to move out of lava so movement doesn't matter as much.

[Baddok21]

In P1 you can AMS every rupture and stand at about 1/2 distance to take nearly 0 damage in heroic. In normal you may be able to stand closer, but I can't remember how much it does on normal.
In P2 he ruptures quicker so you can't do that every time. And all melee needs to wait for the boss to move out of lava so movement doesn't matter as much.

If you stand right up on the boss and use AMS + IBF on Normal you will take 1.2 mil dmg after AMS is down, though the boss has a 10 yrd melee range so if you stand on the absolute end of the Melee range of boss you take 700k after AMS is down with AMS/IBF used. (15-16 man group size)

on Heroic if you stand 15 yards away (basicly dip out of melee range just for the blast) and use AMS/IBF you will survive with 1.7 mil dmg after AMS is down (not this is with 15-16 raid members)

if your doing Heroic/Normal with 20-30 members just run and tap Maiden to keep breath going dont bother chancing it

[Hellrime]

It is so difficult to tell anything really, what with the Convergence of the Legionfall. I don't understand how they thought class tuning would benefit with such a wide variable. Of course, I wasn't able to pug ToS the first week, kept getting denied on groups, not time ran out, denied. I have never seen that. Not that I blame anyone, BoS requires us to be on the boss for maximum uptime and it is our biggest hitting ability when active, but kind of difficult to maintain and monitor with such jarring movement requirements on the fights.

[RuneDK]

It is so difficult to tell anything really, what with the Convergence of the Legionfall. I don't understand how they thought class tuning would benefit with such a wide variable. Of course, I wasn't able to pug ToS the first week, kept getting denied on groups, not time ran out, denied. I have never seen that. Not that I blame anyone, BoS requires us to be on the boss for maximum uptime and it is our biggest hitting ability when active, but kind of difficult to maintain and monitor with such jarring movement requirements on the fights.

Frost will go up in a few weeks as we understand the encounters more...not enough to overtake unholy but I doubt it will be as bad as it currently is now(but it may not be much better even then). Part of BoS(and why I think it's more difficult than unholy) is understanding the fights through and through. Once we get to that point we will be able to maximize our BoS throughput which should naturally see us do more dps.

[Rixarius]

I feel bad for Frost DK's who don't have Unholy leggos to or the desire to switch. However, this was pretty obvious this was coming. The loss of rime tier bonus pretty much looked like the end of the world to me, several weeks ago then they topped it off with a nerf to the BR relic, for good measure.

So far, parses look exactly how I imagined them. Frost on bottom and Unholy near the top / upper middle. This is what happens when you basically lose on-demand aoe, scale like shit, and have a weak toolkit.

Luckily UH isn't nearly as legendary dependent as some DPS specs. I played Frost since the middle of EN progression, swapped to Unholy for this tier and have had no issue keeping up. (Using KJBW and SotD)

I still look forward to getting the Shoulders though.

[RuneDK]

Luckily UH isn't nearly as legendary dependent as some DPS specs. I played Frost since the middle of EN progression, swapped to Unholy for this tier and have had no issue keeping up. (Using KJBW and SotD)

I still look forward to getting the Shoulders though.

You probably don't realize that those are still two of the best legendaries you can have for unholy....

[Rixarius]

You probably don't realize that those are still two of the best legendaries you can have for unholy....

No I definitely know the legendary tier list for Unholy. You miss my point. The point is that people who have been playing Frost regularly since Legion dropped still can have good legendaries for Unholy, because neither of those are Unholy specific.

[RuneDK]

No I definitely know the legendary tier list for Unholy. You miss my point. The point is that people who have been playing Frost regularly since Legion dropped still can have good legendaries for Unholy, because neither of those are Unholy specific.

Which is definitely a good point, but some people may not have gotten those yet....I still don't. My multispec ones are sephuz, prydaz and drapes...sephuz isn't bad for unholy but the other two are ultimately dog shit stat sticks.

Lol just got Soul of the Deathlord...so looks like I can go unholy now...

[exeetor]

same as us?

so you don't think that warriors charge, or havoc fel rush, or even cat form assist other melee to close the gap (even in phase 1) on a shorter CD? let's say, back from rupture realities, or when you need to switch to maiden and such? same applies in phase 2 when you need to get back in melee.

I wasn't being kicked based on p1 performance, got kicked for poor DPS for both phases combined.

I don't have any trouble to say: "I'm casual/bad", but fact remains that all 4 of the frost DKs were way sub-par from other DPS (both melee and especially ranged). just look at logs and tell me how fare we rank (let's say 75 percentile - ish) compared to other classes on this fight.

ofc it helps but we can plan most of our problems ahead (try to get PoF for the knockback etc). Im just saying from what I have seen and felt its not THAT bad for frost. I mostly abuse warlock portals alot during fights like this.

[Nephcyte]

"let ppl that really play this game" https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...r/senjin/hctaz

Once again, people think I'm talking about normal. You could at least check and see what I've completed. Maybe try searching my name. You'd see I've cleared all of normal and heroic Tomb. So no, they aren't bad for frost and you can easily work around the mechanics. Our dps just sucks. I'm pulling numbers exactly where I expected to be and where I expected frost to go from Nighthold with the new gear. People complaining that the fights are the problem are silly. They're fine.

And in case you want a picture of where I stand for on dps: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...rankingzone=11 there's my shit from Mythic Nighthold.

Nice logs, and point proven. People are like screeching rats yelling frost is dead and its a drwning ship. This particular meumaxu gentleman is so deep in a rabbit hole of blaming blizzard for everything that he clearly lost a few brain cells while digging that whole.


I and a friend on mine play frost dk in same raid and its fine. We are getting 85-99 procentile on hc fights. So its pretty much alive and rocking.

Muh boi Syync who got slightly better gear with t20 4p https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...ormscale/syync
And me who is slightly less geard https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...mscale/cyreasa

However i would say that unholy has a slight edge over frost now. Since some of the fights truly are impossible to maintain 60 seconds breath so i just swap to belt. And as many mention with a lot of run away form boss mechanic unholy just seems more reliable.

All that said the difference is between is very little if you know how to play.

[Deleted]

I and a friend on mine play frost dk in same raid and its fine. We are getting 85-99 procentile on hc fights. So its pretty much alive and rocking.

Even the worst spec will have 99% percentile logs, this has nothing to do with class Performance

For one spec 99% could mean 950k dps wehreas another spec 99% is 1.3 mil dps (made up numbers).


But i agree in General. We are raiding with 3 DKs right now, 2 UH and me as frost. The difference is Close, sometimes im better, sometimes they are better.

Ppl just Need to learn the new fights and when to make the best out of BoS if you cannot tunnel the boss. UH is slighly ahead no question, but this also flaws the logs imho. A lot of good DKs will Switch to UH no doubt, so Frost will drop in the logs because the avg skill of frost Players is lower than the avg skill of UH for e.g. TL;DR Frost isnt as bad as the logs seem to indicate.

Once i get the UH legendaries i will probably test if. but for now ill stay frost because i always liked BoS