Deathwing VS Kil'jaeden

[Qualia]

Dragon Soul>Artifacts

This is going in circle, so I will just stop here. Guess the Dragon Soul could potentially collapse the universe, or even Sargeras feared it. Such powerful artifact it is (or not).

[darkoms]

This is going in circle, so I will just stop here. Guess the Dragon Soul could potentially collapse the universe, or even Sargeras feared it. Such powerful artifact it is (or not).

You can once again prove that the Scepter can destroy the universe and that Sargeras really is afraid of Ulchtalesh (how can he be afraid of him?) The whole Legion together can not destroy Sargeras. Enough to bear nonsense. The Scepter did nothing to prove the possibility of destroying the universe. Ner'zhul had other artifacts and lines of force, and in the hands of the Avatars he lost to Aegwynn. If he could destroy the universe, he would not need the power of the Guardian. Turn on the logic and turn off the fanaticism.

[Qualia]

You can once again prove that the Scepter can destroy the universe and that Sargeras really is afraid of Ulchtalesh (how can he be afraid of him?) The whole Legion together can not destroy Sargeras. Enough to bear nonsense. The Scepter did nothing to prove the possibility of destroying the universe. Ner'zhul had other artifacts and lines of force, and in the hands of the Avatars he lost to Aegwynn. If he could destroy the universe, he would not need the power of the Guardian. Turn on the logic and turn off the fanaticism.

...
It's a statement from the omnipresence narrator that the Scepter can do that. We don't need to see it literally destroy the universe when the omnipresence narrator - in other words, Blizzard's words - tell us it can. The statement from Blizzard is undeniable proof. Do you even know what canon information means anymore? It's not fanaticism, it's called sticking to canon, thank you very much. If you want to ignore canon, go ahead, but please don't tell others to do so.

The Avatar lost to Aegwynn because Sargeras never really cared if it win or lost. This was explained to you by me and others few pages ago, with canon quotes to go with - quotes that you conveniently ignored as usual. I should've realized that you have no intention of discussing things based on canon by then, my bad. Sargeras need the power of the Guardian to get to Azeroth. In case you missed it, he no longer want to destroy Azeroth. Now, he want to corrupt Azeroth to be his - this was stated clearly in the lore of the Scepter. So why'd he want to collapse the universe (and Azeroth), unless he can't help it? Start reading up on the lore, please. You are resembling those "Old Gods can't die lalala" fans so much at the moment.

[Suffragium]

Kil'jaeden was blessed by Sargeras.

Deathwing was blessed by a titan and the old gods.

A titan can easily slay an old god.
Sargeras can easily slay any titans.

Therefore, Kil'jaeden would win.

[Deleted]

A million times Deathwing.

We don't need deus ex machina powers (Dragon Soul) against Kil'jaeden, that says enough. Besides, Archimonde has more raw power than Kil'jaeden and we even defeated him without our Artifacts.

I think we finally have our answer clearly. Deathwing is simply more powerful. He even broke the world.

[darkoms]

...
It's a statement from the omnipresence narrator that the Scepter can do that. We don't need to see it literally destroy the universe when the omnipresence narrator - in other words, Blizzard's words - tell us it can. The statement from Blizzard is undeniable proof. Do you even know what canon information means anymore? It's not fanaticism, it's called sticking to canon, thank you very much. If you want to ignore canon, go ahead, but please don't tell others to do so.

The Avatar lost to Aegwynn because Sargeras never really cared if it win or lost. This was explained to you by me and others few pages ago, with canon quotes to go with - quotes that you conveniently ignored as usual. I should've realized that you have no intention of discussing things based on canon by then, my bad. Sargeras need the power of the Guardian to get to Azeroth. In case you missed it, he no longer want to destroy Azeroth. Now, he want to corrupt Azeroth to be his - this was stated clearly in the lore of the Scepter. So why'd he want to collapse the universe (and Azeroth), unless he can't help it? Start reading up on the lore, please. You are resembling those "Old Gods can't die lalala" fans so much at the moment.

What are you talking about again? I know perfectly well that Sargeras wants to unleash Azeroth, I ask, why would he need the Guardian with such powerful weapons? Please, stop being fanboy and start interpreting lor properly. Scepter Sargeras and 1/10 is not so strong.
The ancient gods are dead, do not compare me to the stupid people who believe that this is not so.
I found a quote. '' Such an instrument would also weaken the integrity of the physical universe and threaten to collapse it, but Sargeras considered those to be only side benefits.'' Um, and in your head did not come up with the idea that there is a physical plan and that it just can open a huge number of portals, and it will destroy the physical plane, not the whole fucking Universe, in which there are a huge number of galaxies, but not the whole Universe. Sargeras himself is just the level of the planet, turn on the logic (which I ask) and understand that if the maximum of Sargeras is to destroy the planets (or at least solar systems), then simply his servants can not create a weapon that will destroy the universe

[Qualia]

What are you talking about again? I know perfectly well that Sargeras wants to unleash Azeroth, I ask, why would he need the Guardian with such powerful weapons? Please, stop being fanboy and start interpreting lor properly. Scepter Sargeras and 1/10 is not so strong.
The ancient gods are dead, do not compare me to the stupid people who believe that this is not so.
I found a quote. '' Such an instrument would also weaken the integrity of the physical universe and threaten to collapse it, but Sargeras considered those to be only side benefits.'' Um, and in your head did not come up with the idea that there is a physical plan and that it just can open a huge number of portals, and it will destroy the physical plane, not the whole fucking Universe, in which there are a huge number of galaxies, but not the whole Universe. Sargeras himself is just the level of the planet, turn on the logic (which I ask) and understand that if the maximum of Sargeras is to destroy the planets (or at least solar systems), then simply his servants can not create a weapon that will destroy the universe

... What are you talking about? You asked why would Sargeras need the Guardian when he got the Scepter. The answer is because he want to corrupt Azeroth to be his instead of destroying her. The Scepter itself, as powerful as it was, wasn't designed to open a massive portal for Sargeras himself to go through (and neither can the Dragon Soul, just in case you think the DS can) without a massive source of power (i.e: the Well during WoTA) - which is no longer available. It only allow a portion of his soul through - that's why he wanted to turn a Guardian into the instrument of the Legion, and to manipulate him / her for his own plans to find a way here. Is that clear enough? All of it was stated in the Scepter lore, really.

Additionally, stop with the headcanon, please. Did you see the term "physical plane" there? It stated - unless my eyes are going bad - "the physical universe" there. U.N.I.V.E.R.S.E. I work with canon, not what my head, or anyone else's head think something should be instead of its canon description. Why are you trying to twist canon into what you *think*? It said physical universe - in contrast to the spiritual plane or other dimensions (i.e: the Nether, the Shadowlands, the Emerald Dream, etc.), and here you are saying "no no, not the universe, a plane". What? It was established as early as the "Cosmology" section of Chronicle what "physical universe" means: "The Great Dark Beyond represents the physical universe. It is an infinite living realm composed of innumerable stars, worlds, and mortal civilization. Azeroth - the world of Warcraft - is merely one of the countless worlds drifting through the vast reaches of the Great Dark Beyond". I have seen a lot of arguments made for the sake of arguing in various topics, but this is the first time I see someone claiming "physical universe" isn't "the whole universe", really.

Lastly, it doesn't matter what you think, or whether you consider it logical or not. What matters is that it was stated so, and thus, it's canon. If the narrator ever said that Sargeras is actually a space bunny, he'll be a space bunny, regardless how ridiculous it is. We're here to discuss things based canon, I believe. You may find some details not to your taste, but that doesn't change the fact that those are canon. And why can't Sargeras' followers create something that can cause more destruction than Sargeras himself? It's a tool, not a follower, and a tool created by a number of rituals putting portals / demons inside. It's not like a random eredar goes poof, and the Scepter was created. Pretty sure the Mana Bomb used on Theramore was way more destructive than Garrosh - same logic goes here. Even if assuming it was the Scepter's maximum output if wielded by Sargeras, in comparison, the DS wielded by Sargeras was only said to be able to slain thousands people or wiping out all life from "a land". You can clearly see the difference in output there. The DS couldn't even one shot Malygos when wielded by Deathwing, for that matter.

[darkoms]

... What are you talking about? You asked why would Sargeras need the Guardian when he got the Scepter. The answer is because he want to corrupt Azeroth to be his instead of destroying her. The Scepter itself, as powerful as it was, wasn't designed to open a massive portal for Sargeras himself to go through (and neither can the Dragon Soul, just in case you think the DS can) without a massive source of power (i.e: the Well during WoTA) - which is no longer available. It only allow a portion of his soul through - that's why he wanted to turn a Guardian into the instrument of the Legion, and to manipulate him / her for his own plans to find a way here. Is that clear enough? All of it was stated in the Scepter lore, really.

Additionally, stop with the headcanon, please. Did you see the term "physical plane" there? It stated - unless my eyes are going bad - "the physical universe" there. U.N.I.V.E.R.S.E. I work with canon, not what my head, or anyone else's head think something should be instead of its canon description. Why are you trying to twist canon into what you *think*? It said physical universe - in contrast to the spiritual plane or other dimensions (i.e: the Nether, the Shadowlands, the Emerald Dream, etc.), and here you are saying "no no, not the universe, a plane". What? It was established as early as the "Cosmology" section of Chronicle what "physical universe" means: "The Great Dark Beyond represents the physical universe. It is an infinite living realm composed of innumerable stars, worlds, and mortal civilization. Azeroth - the world of Warcraft - is merely one of the countless worlds drifting through the vast reaches of the Great Dark Beyond". I have seen a lot of arguments made for the sake of arguing in various topics, but this is the first time I see someone claiming "physical universe" isn't "the whole universe", really.

It doesn't matter what you think, or whether you consider it logical or not. What matters is that it was stated so, and thus, it's canon. If the narrator ever said that Sargeras is actually a space bunny, he'll be a space bunny, regardless how ridiculous it is. We're here to discuss things based canon, I believe. You may find some details not to your taste, but that doesn't change the fact that those are canon. And why can't Sargeras' followers create something that can cause more destruction than Sargeras himself? It's a tool, not a follower, and a tool created by a number of rituals putting portals / demons inside. It's not like a random eredar goes poof, and the Scepter was created. Pretty sure the Mana Bomb used on Theramore was way more destructive than Garrosh - same logic goes here.

No, the Scepter could not have let all Sargeras (the Dragon Soul could) and he had to send an avatar. Manabomba is stronger than Garrosh, but weaker than Malygos

[Qualia]

No, the Scepter could not have let all Sargeras (the Dragon Soul could) and he had to send an avatar. Manabomba is stronger than Garrosh, but weaker than Malygos

The ... Dragon Soul ... could? That there show how much, or little, did you know about the lore there, my friend. The Dragon Soul created the portal with the Well of Eternity as the source of power. It can't create a portal without it, as it is stated there: "He knew he couldn't rely on a static portal; to serve a titan, such a gateway required an astronomical amount of power, and the most promising source had been destroyed in his last attempt.". Are you going to say that the Dragon Soul was that source, and it was destroyed in WoTA next? Surely not?

Not even sure what Malygos was doing there, as you were arguing that followers of someone can't create a tool more powerful than their leader. Garrosh was the leader of his Horde, not Malygos.

[darkoms]

The ... Dragon Soul ... could? That there show how much, or little, did you know about the lore there, my friend. The Dragon Soul created the portal with the Well of Eternity as the source of power. It can't create a portal without it, as it is stated there: "He knew he couldn't rely on a static portal; to serve a titan, such a gateway required an astronomical amount of power, and the most promising source had been destroyed in his last attempt.". Are you going to say that the Dragon Soul was that source, and it was destroyed in WoTA next? Surely not?

Not even sure what Malygos was doing there, as you were arguing that followers of someone can't create a tool more powerful than their leader. Garrosh was the leader of his Horde, not Malygos.

Yes, but it was with the help of the Dragon Soul that the portal became big enough. The scepter could let in only the avatar.
Manabomba works on the Focusing Iris, which the blue dragons created

[Qualia]

Yes, but it was with the help of the Dragon Soul that the portal became big enough. The scepter could let in only the avatar.
Manabomba works on the Focusing Iris, which the blue dragons created

The Scepter had no extremely powerful source of power - in other words, the Well of Eternity - to work with, obviously it would have a lesser output than the Dragon Soul + the original Well of Eternity. The Dragon Soul alone, however? Nope. Did I miss that the original WoE's power was absorbed into the DS somehow, or why are you compare a feat created by DS + WoE with a feat created by the Scepter alone? We already know how destructive DS can be when wielded by Sargeras. It isn't such a hard thing to compare it with the Scepter's destructive capability.

The Focusing Iris belonged to the Blue Dragon, so what? The Mana Bomb was still created by the Horde - the Iris was just a tool used for that. And if that doesn't convince you, even a normal (non-Focusing Iris empowered) Mana Bomb can cause more destruction than Garrosh (or Rhonin, who was leader of the Dalaran) can - as can be seen during TBC. No, not all mana bomb are empowered by the Iris, just in case.

[Justpassing]

Ya'll getting trolled here fyi.

[darkoms]

The Scepter had no extremely powerful source of power - in other words, the Well of Eternity - to work with, obviously it would have a lesser output than the Dragon Soul + the original Well of Eternity. The Dragon Soul alone, however? Nope. Did I miss that the original WoE's power was absorbed into the DS somehow, or why are you compare a feat created by DS + WoE with a feat created by the Scepter alone? We already know how destructive DS can be when wielded by Sargeras. It isn't such a hard thing to compare it with the Scepter's destructive capability.

The Focusing Iris belonged to the Blue Dragon, so what? The Mana Bomb was still created by the Horde - the Iris was just a tool used for that. And if that doesn't convince you, even a normal (non-Focusing Iris empowered) Mana Bomb can cause more destruction than Garrosh (or Rhonin, who was leader of the Dalaran) can - as can be seen during TBC. No, not all mana bomb are empowered by the Iris, just in case.

According to your logic, Scepter does not need a super-source of energy, he can destroy the universe!

[Qualia]

According to your logic, Scepter does not need a super-source of energy, he can destroy the universe!

I'm not sure if you realized it, but destructive capability != utilities. However, as long as you can't figure out that we should follow canon, I don't really see any reason to keep this up. I'm here to discuss canonical stuffs, not to talk to a wall. It was stated so in canon, so it's the truth, regardless whether you personally find it logical or not.

Heck, with Justpassing's post, my suspicion that you are just trolling more or less increased. So yeah, that will be all from me until you start following canon lore.

[darkoms]

If the Scepter can destroy the universe, why should Sargeras Legion? Let it just blow it all up and all.

[Deleted]

In a one on one, Deathwing.

Kil'Jaeden is great at y'know...being the deceiver and all but it's like trying to manipulate your way out of a boulder rolling towards you. Cunning and guile ain't gunna stop raw destructive power.

[Larynx]

Kil'jaeden and it's not even close. Deathwing basically had months to destroy Azeroth, backed up by Old Gods and failed.

Kil'jaeden never stepped into Azeroth. We all know how it went when Archimonde did, the world nearly exploded and the Night elves had to sacrifice the World Tree to beat him. Kil'jaeden's even stronger than Archimonde. He was, after all, the strongest in the Legion ( I'm still not sure if Sargeras has an actual form ) or the second strongest.

Deathwing was just a pawn.

I don't really buy this very much. In-game representation varies tremendously of Archimonde and KJ between expansions.

In WC3, we had an entire campaign, a fourth of the game, devoted to summoning Archimonde. Then another campaign where the objective was literally to just delay him.

In TBC, we had a raid tier devoted to stopping KJ from being summoned at all, and he never made it through his portal. Both of them were such great threats that their mere presence on the planet posed an incredible danger to it.

Meanwhile in WoD, Archimonde has about 5 minutes of build up and casually steps through a portal, and is then defeated no problem despite being at full strength and fighting on his own terms in a Legion stronghold. In Legion, KJ is running around for months on the Broken Isles, and his summoning wasn't even so much as mentioned. He didn't do anything at all, despite having just as much freedom as Deathwing. Archimonde casually destroyed a city with a hand gesture in WC3, Deathwing ripped continents apart and had the capability to destroy the planet (that was the failure state for Madness), KJ said some scary things to Illidan one time in TFT.

Point is, arguing power level off something as nebulous as the whims of a Blizzard lore writers is meaningless. It's doubly stupid when in-game feats don't even support your argument.

Oh, and KJ is just a pawn too. Sargeras could look at him the wrong way and he'd die.

[Deleted]

Neither. Both are well below expectation.