the brainlessitude of "simyourself" answers

[Ifeanychukwu]

I'm subbed to AMR as well as having the addon installed and have no problem simming myself when I feel like I need to. What bothers me is when I hop into discord to ask for peoples opinions on trinkets or set bonuses etc. and the only response is to "just sim it". I'm not looking for in depth analysis or explanations, I just want some personal opinions but people can't be bothered to type a sentence or two.

I usually prefer to test things out myself in raids or mythics anyway because I feel more comfortable with actual results based on my own performance but sometimes I just wanna know what other people think about certain things and it's difficult to get a straight answer sometimes. If someone doesn't want to engage and give a little advice they shouldn't really bother saying anything, people already know if you want detailed information you run sims. The "sim it" response doesn't need to be the answer to every question.

[Raiz]

You can import your gear into RaidBots and it will simulate 300 THOUSAND fights and average them together to determine the optimum setup in literally 30 seconds. Why would you not do that? What possible opposition could you have to that?

I'm more concerned about it. Obviously it's the best tool to smooth out the most rng procs but does it use a predefined rotation or is the rotation itself changing to whatever is best ?
I don't think the current sims can predict what's the best damage output for the future 30 sec, does it ? For example when you have a combination of 2 spells that works great together but the boss will die before you have both of your spells off CD.
That's why I prefered to use my own experience, I don't have time to check what this sim is using for those situations. And frankly, I doubt it uses the best rotation with all the news changes they're adding in the new patches (Thinking about unholy rotation. We suddenly changed 3-4 talents for the new Dark Arbiter buff + the lost bonus of 2/4 19set pieces).
If I am wrong, then I'd be glad to use it more. It's been a great tool because of trinkets/relics and rings/necks, because it's where I had the most troubles with.

[Deathquoi]

I'm more concerned about it. Obviously it's the best tool to smooth out the most rng procs but does it use a predefined rotation or is the rotation itself changing to whatever is best ?
I don't think the current sims can predict what's the best damage output for the future 30 sec, does it ? For example when you have a combination of 2 spells that works great together but the boss will die before you have both of your spells off CD.
That's why I prefered to use my own experience, I don't have time to check what this sim is using for those situations. And frankly, I doubt it uses the best rotation with all the news changes they're adding in the new patches (Thinking about unholy rotation. We suddenly changed 3-4 talents for the new Dark Arbiter buff + the lost bonus of 2/4 19set pieces).
If I am wrong, then I'd be glad to use it more. It's been a great tool because of trinkets/relics and rings/necks, because it's where I had the most troubles with.

It uses a priority list that is updated regularly. You tell it what talents you're using, and it generates the priority list, which you can see. There's really no reason to experiment with changing up priority lists as it's fairly straightforward what abilities you use and when, but you can change your priority list if you want to. Pretty sure it will try to line up cooldowns as well like trinkets and buffs and stuff like DA. There's really no way you could ever get a more accurate answer from attacking a target dummy.

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I'm subbed to AMR as well as having the addon installed and have no problem simming myself when I feel like I need to. What bothers me is when I hop into discord to ask for peoples opinions on trinkets or set bonuses etc. and the only response is to "just sim it". I'm not looking for in depth analysis or explanations, I just want some personal opinions but people can't be bothered to type a sentence or two.

I usually prefer to test things out myself in raids or mythics anyway because I feel more comfortable with actual results based on my own performance but sometimes I just wanna know what other people think about certain things and it's difficult to get a straight answer sometimes. If someone doesn't want to engage and give a little advice they shouldn't really bother saying anything, people already know if you want detailed information you run sims. The "sim it" response doesn't need to be the answer to every question.

It isn't the answer to every question. It's the answer to a lot of questions about gear and stats.

[Tradu]

When people say sim yourself most idiots just use a bot and run a sim, but the only TRUE way to run a sim is to buff up with food and flask and attack a boss target dummy for 20 minutes straight and gauge what works in your cycle and what needs to be improved.

I don't trust robots to tell me if I'm playing the game right I do it myself..

Which is why I'm a better player than 99% of the community.

I seriously doubt you're better than 99% of the community if you actually think that you hitting a dummy for 20 minutes gives any relevant results at all.

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Lolo huhuhu boy....let me pull these words out.

- basic principles of mathematics
- a mathematical equation.
- It's a big math problem with a bunch of variables

Just ask your self, does kid of 10 years old...no wait.... is ANYONE expected to know mathematical equations and mathematical problems to play the game? Read it out loud and listen how ridiculous it sounds. Or you won't find it ridiculous at all. That's fine. I won't bother replying.

If you do find how it ridiculous it sounds, then I guess, you will realize that without your "optimal" options, just using a bit brain will be enough to kill Mythic bosses. That of course, destroys your analogy.

Luckily people aren't expected to know all the math behind stats, there's other people who do that for them by building stuff like Simcraft. Just like not everybody is expected to be able to write their own addons, yet bosses are most certainly tuned around addons being used.

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I'm more concerned about it. Obviously it's the best tool to smooth out the most rng procs but does it use a predefined rotation or is the rotation itself changing to whatever is best ?
I don't think the current sims can predict what's the best damage output for the future 30 sec, does it ? For example when you have a combination of 2 spells that works great together but the boss will die before you have both of your spells off CD.
That's why I prefered to use my own experience, I don't have time to check what this sim is using for those situations. And frankly, I doubt it uses the best rotation with all the news changes they're adding in the new patches (Thinking about unholy rotation. We suddenly changed 3-4 talents for the new Dark Arbiter buff + the lost bonus of 2/4 19set pieces).
If I am wrong, then I'd be glad to use it more. It's been a great tool because of trinkets/relics and rings/necks, because it's where I had the most troubles with.

Specifically Dark Arbiter and Breath of Sindragosa are abilities that the sim APLs have always struggled with using as effectively as real players(couldn't tell you why, would need to ask the DK simc guys), but apart from that the APLs are generally extremely accurate/well maintained for every DPS spec by the time a patch goes live, because that's what people have spent the time PTR has been active polishing.

[Fiftyonred]

Sure thing. I'll make sure to ask the guy what his chances of fucking up a certain part of his rotation are. And then i'll take into account all the boss mechanics he will have to deal with and how those will impact his rotation. I'll also analyze his gear to make sure that he takes the best talents because they might be affected by his stats. I'll also consider the overall timing of the fight and how his rotation fits into that.

Which is pretty much exactly how things work before all the "sim your self" answers started emerging.
People took the time to go over the details which in turn provided much better answers, and actualy helped the person asking.

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When people say sim yourself most idiots just use a bot and run a sim, but the only TRUE way to run a sim is to buff up with food and flask and attack a boss target dummy for 20 minutes straight and gauge what works in your cycle and what needs to be improved.

I don't trust robots to tell me if I'm playing the game right I do it myself..

Which is why I'm a better player than 99% of the community.

Really wonder how old a person making such a statement is?

[Tradu]

Which is pretty much exactly how things work before all the "sim your self" answers started emerging.
People took the time to go over the details which in turn provided much better answers, and actualy helped the person asking.

Frankly, if somebody is asking which stat is best or which ring to use, "sim yourself" is the only correct answer. Trinkets also require simming, but then you have to also consider the context of the fight you're doing(AoE trinkets/ST trinkets/trinkets that suffer from downtime etc). In general, though, when people get told to "sim themselves", it's because they asked a question that has been asked a million times before: "which stat do I need?". Same thing for the other generic answer "look in pins/stickies/resources/guides", people just ask repeat questions all the time and expect to be treated like a special snowflake and have people waste their time repeating the same answers over and over again, rather than just checking the preexisting resources for the answer first.

[MisterBigglez]

Because you should sim yourself. It's not just gear that can be a dps increase, but talents aswell. Using hunter as an example, many BM hunters are doing more dps with the zoo build while many are doing more with the frenzy build, both have different stat weights and gameplay changes. The reason for that is because of their personal gear.

It doesnt take long to do a simple sim for stat weights and an estimate of dps.

[GutsAP]

When people say sim yourself most idiots just use a bot and run a sim, but the only TRUE way to run a sim is to buff up with food and flask and attack a boss target dummy for 20 minutes straight and gauge what works in your cycle and what needs to be improved.

I don't trust robots to tell me if I'm playing the game right I do it myself..

Which is why I'm a better player than 99% of the community.

This is you ->
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../13#metric=dps

"Best Perf. Avg: 30
Median Perf. Avg: 28"

In Normal ToS mind you.

You need to sim yourself.

[Deleted]

Which is pretty much exactly how things work before all the "sim your self" answers started emerging.
People took the time to go over the details which in turn provided much better answers, and actualy helped the person asking.

Cool. Feel free to pick a character you feel familiar with and give me stat weights, chose what trinkets/talents/relics are better for that character for a simple ST fight. Assume that i tend to fuck up and delay abilities by up to 5s 20% of the time and i tend to overcap my resources(if there are any) by 1cast / 1gcd and my rotation in general is taken off of icy veins. Please let me know your findings when you're done, obviously without using simcraft as simming yourself is a sin.

[Tradu]

This is you ->
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../13#metric=dps

"Best Perf. Avg: 30
Median Perf. Avg: 28"

In Normal ToS mind you.

You need to sim yourself.

Maybe he does, but assuming that's him, he definitely needs to actually read a guide and learn his spec as well.

[Ichifails]

Maybe he does, but assuming that's him, he definitely needs to actually read a guide and learn his spec as well.

With a 25-30 avg he doesn't need to sim himself or read a guide, it's way past that point. He needs either Jesus or to go to a doctor... maybe both.

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Lolo huhuhu boy....let me pull these words out.

- basic principles of mathematics
- a mathematical equation.
- It's a big math problem with a bunch of variables

Just ask your self, does kid of 10 years old...no wait.... is ANYONE expected to know mathematical equations and mathematical problems to play the game? Read it out loud and listen how ridiculous it sounds. Or you won't find it ridiculous at all. That's fine. I won't bother replying.

If you do find how it ridiculous it sounds, then I guess, you will realize that without your "optimal" options, just using a bit brain will be enough to kill Mythic bosses. That of course, destroys your analogy.

I started playing when I was 12 and we had pen and paper theorycrafting and forums dedicated to this. It was way fucking worse than a good simming software with an API that can run thousands to hundreds of thousands of the same calculation we used to do. But then again I'm 25 now with a Mechanical Engineering degree and finishing another one in Automatics and Applied Informatics next year so maybe comparing myself to you isn't the best idea. Sucking major dick at what I do isn't my passion.

[Unbelievr]

Most questions that get these responses are of the type: "Should I use item X, Y or Z?" or "What is the best lvl XX talent?". The actual best way to get the answer to this, is to DPS a dummy for a long period of time with each of your setups, logging all the encounters. There are various dummy setups too, from 1-5 targets. Doing so will take into account how good/bad you are at reacting to procs, utilizing cooldowns, your latency etc. and will thus be the most accurate representation of what you are able to pump out. Unfortunately, it is quite hard to simulate movement with this setup, and doing your rotation for hours is quite tedious (and expensive with food/flask/pots). Simming yourself is a good approximation to this work, but it will only reflect the potential DPS you are able to reach.

For me, simming two item setups will show me the obvious upgrades, but I have to apply some common sense to the mix as well. I.e. some talent setups are not the best on Patchwerk fights, but will help out against a hard mechanic. Same with support legendaries. They might be a DPS loss, but so is being dead.

If you truly do not want to use simulation tools, because you don't require that level of detail, then equip the highest ilvl items you have and go at it. Your DPS won't be optimal, but it won't be terrible either.

[Sliske]

I think that if someone is asking for help, is better not to anser than reply "simyourself", try to be constructive, try to be friendly

The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, fucking vast majority of questions asked on Discord and here on MMO C and in guild chat and in trade chat are

"Is X better than Y?"

to which the ONLY answer is

SIM YOURSELF

Sure, another player could sim YOUR character for you, but thats just fuckin lazy.

[Darleth]

When people say sim yourself most idiots just use a bot and run a sim, but the only TRUE way to run a sim is to buff up with food and flask and attack a boss target dummy for 20 minutes straight and gauge what works in your cycle and what needs to be improved.

I don't trust robots to tell me if I'm playing the game right I do it myself..

Which is why I'm a better player than 99% of the community.

You're retarded.
You do something like this to find out procrates if anything or HOW LONG you can actually hold a certain DPS level. Not to "sim yourself" as it doesn't show you shit about your gear.
If you cant even hammer in the same 4 buttons for 20 minutes because apparently you cant, just stop trying to make any argument in here.

Also, I would love to see your Logs. I'm pretty sure you're a bad player making a shitty statement about a topic, that shouldn't exist in the first plays and I'm probably one of the reasons WHY it exists.

Ontopic:
Simulationcraft (and raidbots or any other website for this matter) exist for solely one thing: improving your performance. If people ask the same questions every time, people will get pissed off, especially when it comes down to trinket choices for example. Nobody can tell you if trinket X with 2500 Mastery and a damage proc is better than trinket Y with 1500 Agility and 1500 mastery for example. Trinket X could be better depending on how often the damage procs, the raw stat gain could be the better choice just because you have those stats for basically 100% of the fight OR they could be completely even etc. etc. Sims help with finding out which is more useful and probably better suited for certain situations, which you can basically setup in Simulationcraft.

Especially in finding out if a certain piece of gear is better than your current equipped one, simming can help a lot. Sometimes a lower itemlevel item CAN be better just because it has the better stats on it, which you wouldn't think as the higher itemlevel one should be better, but it has worse stats. Simcraft helps you out easily by telling you "well look, here are your stats: you see whats on top? This item here is better just because of it, so use it!".

So, Simcraft is a handy tool and people who actually give a shit about their performance should use it, even if its just a low upgrade. But if the same questions get asked every day, where there is the simple answer of "you should sim it yourself to find out if X or Y is better", it gets annoying and people will become assholes and answer like assholes.

[Gunwolf]

I hate this answer too, and agree its seen far too often.

On one side, its usually the best answer if you ask something specific about your character like stat priority, relics, or trinkets which is what sims are best for. But sometimes I just wanna hear an opinion, like what people think of various trinkets or trinket combos. Talents also usually get the "sim it" answer, but its useful info to have people give their opinions on various talents in different situations (raid bosses or M+, single or cleave, ect). Especially when it comes to less popular talents that might not have much testing or input.

The thing with sims is that they aren't perfect, they need to be programmed and require input from players to get it up to par. The people who do work on it for Shaman do an awesome job and the sim is a great tool, but it can have flaws. Like I remember reading that the talent "Lightning Shield" doesn't sim properly, and "Earthen Spike" wasn't simming properly in the past too.... so we don't know the true potential of these talents unless someone tests in game and reports on it. Its certainly the best tool we have tho, so while not perfect its better then just guessing.

One other thing that makes me wary of sims is that they are always tested and reported with Patchwerk fights only. This means our character is always attacking the target and doesn't move.... it makes me think that this fight type will skew results by not factoring in lower uptime cause your moving around to avoid mechanics or target switching and stuff. A stat like haste could be slightly overvalued cause of patchwerks 100% uptime, where our imbues and other passive damage will do alot more when in reality this won't ever happen cause we won't always be hitting the boss. I like to use the other fight types like "helter skelter" and stuff just to double check various results, but again no one posts that stuff usually. I wish we had more modes that we could customize cause fight types like "low mobility" and "high mobility" don't really cut it for me but I don't have much advanced experience with sims or how to make custom fight scenarios (if anyone knows how to make custom fights tho please let me know). Its a good thing that raidbots website is out now tho since its made it much easier for anyone to sim stuff quickly and simply.

Another thing aside from sims that can help alot is to look up rankings for current raid of your class/spec. This lets you see the top 10 enhance shaman for each raid boss, what talent setup they had, gear they used like legendaries and trinkets, plus lots of other useful info. Its a good guideline to follow even if not specific to your character.

So "just sim it" can be annoying to see, and on forums I like to see discussion, but I also don't blame people for saying it esp when someone asks a very specific question like "which gear/leggo/relic/trinket should I use?" since the sims will typically give the best answer. But say now that ToS is out and we have all these new trinkets, seeing more discussion about it and peoples experiences with various trinkets in game can be very useful info that the sims can't really give.

[Deleted]

But sometimes I just wanna hear an opinion, like what people think of various trinkets or trinket combos.

If that is what you are looking for, you shouldn't ask what is best but rather how this setup/trinket plays. The personal impression of people, especially this early into a tier, won't be good data to actually judge performance by. Certain trinkets have caveats like, really good, but only if you can stay on the boss the entire fight, and those are usually brought up when talking about sims.

Simcraft in general is a well maintained piece of software, so there will always be bugs. But usually not for long.

One other thing that makes me wary of sims is that they are always tested and reported with Patchwerk fights only.

That is a choice not a limitation of the software. You can sim different types of fights, with movement, adds and all those kinds of things, you can even write your own fight profiles for simcraft to follow. The thing is, the more you assume about a fight the less generally applicable your results become, that is why the most common point of reference is patchwerk, as you can get a lot of useful info out of that and then apply game knowledge to adjust for the real fight conditions.

Another thing aside from sims that can help alot is to look up rankings for current raid of your class/spec. This lets you see the top 10 enhance shaman for each raid boss, what talent setup they had, gear they used like legendaries and trinkets, plus lots of other useful info. Its a good guideline to follow even if not specific to your character.

This skews at least as hard as simcraft. It skews you towards things that work at the highest level of gear and towards cheesing the fights by having other people do all the shit jobs/leaving all the adds to you for padding.

[felix014]

I've been in this forum for 5 years, not many posts i know but i've seen the change of people's responses to the posts.Simming was always around but ppl were way constructive and helpful with explanations rather than just saying "simyourself".I completely agree with the op's thoughts.
The ppl who asks these questions like "which item is better", or "which build for x boss etc.." imo, either a returning player from a long break, or casually raiding just to have fun and see the content.You wouldnt expect these questions from an end-game raiding player as he's probably allready doing simming for himself.
Many raiders allready know which stats are better and which are worse amongs 3 builds, or which build is better for which boss.The people who are asking these questions is not after min/maxing every build/stat.So if you want to help them, help them with what you know, or you can always ignore these posts.

[Fiftyonred]

The problem with the "sim-yourself" answers is that it assumes that the receiving party understand how AMR or SimC works, which, for many people arent the case.
And, unless you know how to tweak the tool and even set it up correctly, the answer "sim yourself" becomes completely worthless.

So, yes it might be the correct answer, but thats dosnt make it a good one.

If every single answer was always answered with "Just google it", no discussions would ever take place, which is where the real value of a forum like this is.

[Charge me Doctor]

snip

You seem to have an impression that "sim yourself" answer is akin to "ask magic 8 ball" - you should know that simming is not the act of throwing your character stats and gear into simcraft, but something more complex that requires a person to analyze the sims he will get himself. Off course sim results is not a fucking answer to anything, but it's a beginning point. If anyone asks "which spec is better for ToS?!" the answer "sim yourself" is perfectly fine - because we don't have a clue aboutneither his character or preferred talent setup, general skill, how often he fucks up and where does he plans to raid.

[MiseryIndex]

If every single answer was always answered with "Just google it", no discussions would ever take place, which is where the real value of a forum like this is.

If you see people asking questions that can be discussed, those are discussed. If you ever check Enhancement discord at Earthshrine, they're discussed incessantly. Hell, even here, questions that aren't purely about what piece of gear is best are discussed for far too long. The answer sim it will always be in response to questions about gear or talent choices. If you're asking in a vacuum, the answer is in the guides. If you're asking for a specific situation such as your character with your stats and your trinkets, then the answer is Sim It. If you're saying that people shouldn't be told to sim it because SimC is hard to understand, then for anyone to answer that question with anything other than their opinions means for them to sim it for you. Which is where the lazy criticism comes from. If people are asking these questions with any degree of seriousness, then they can take the 10 minutes it takes to read a guide on Simcraft, or watch one of the videos people have provided.

Literally everything I've read against simming sets up these scenarios where the question being asked isn't about gear or stat choices. That's never the case. Try asking anyone about gear selection on a specific fight, and I guarantee you not one sane person here will tell you to sim it, because that's not the question being asked.

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One other thing that makes me wary of sims is that they are always tested and reported with Patchwerk fights only.

This is literally the exact opposite of true.