Ever felt like you were a liability in a mythic guild?

[Deleted]

It sounds like your parses are pretty good. You got nothing to worry about.

[potis]

First a little context. My guild is 1/9M atm and we got cutting edge Guldan. I joined them towards the end of the last raid cycle as they were progressing on Mythic Eli. I only raided heroics prior and had no mythic experience but they were still willing to give me a chance. I managed to pass the trial easily and they quickly geared me up. Even though there were countless wipes on Guldan, it was amazing when we finally killed him.

We have been progressing nicely on H TOS and killed Kiljaeden in the first week. I was even awarded some tier pieces and am now 1 piece away from 4 set bonus. However, I have been noticing that I have been performing comparatively worse in logs compared to many others in the raid. I have a 2 orange parses, a few purples, and the rest are blues and greens, putting me at 70% average percentile for heroic and I was at 51% for M goroth in last night's kill. There are about 5 or 6 people in the guild who consistently hit orange and purple and average around 85%.

So I'm somewhat in a conundrum now. On one hand, I feel like I'm somewhat being carried while others that might perform better are being sat and I don't want to hinder progression. On the other hand, the fact that I have been given loot makes me think that they want me to be part of the team and I don't want to abandon them. I am considering either taking a break from raiding altogether or join a "less skilled" progression guild. I have tried reading detailed guides on my class, watching videos, analyzing logs but I can't seem to push it to the next level. This has led to increased stress levels and raiding is becoming less fun as it only becomes a matter of numbers as I try to catch up to others. I kinda miss the old days where I raided heroic with my old guild and can goof around. In mythic, I feel like I can't make a single mistake and have to play optimally all the time just to keep up with others and it feels like a job. I don't really want to leave though because these are just a great bunch of guys who don't have an elitist bone in their body despite all this. Any thoughts or advice?

Mythic isnt a job.

If you feel you are out of your element is because:

1)You arent confident in your play-skills.

2)You werent ready for Mythic cause of 1.

Parses arent -everything- when it comes to raiding, not even sure why this became a thing.

Parse is there to show that you arent a complete mongoloid, you dont have to pull Orange parses 24/7, you have to pull above 75% percentile to be considered worthwhile or in other word to be considered "not getting carried".

Doing mechanics and being above 75%? Averagely, thats when you know you have a Raider.

If your guild isnt complaining i dont know why you are, if you are so concerned talk to your officers about it, if they go "Wtf are you talking about" then you are fine.

But hey, i havent seen a honest post in awhile, your type is rare, back in my actual raiding days i would kill for scrubs with your mentality.

[Deleted]

As an officer in a guild with similar progress to yours, I hate DPS meters and I hate parses.

When we were on HC KJ first week there was a moment where I (being healer) was getting ready for armageddon and started running towards a corner where 3 armageddons spawned. I called out in TS "Soaking one at orange mark, 2 more needed". 1 guy was there instantly, and then no one else. So I had to scream for one more to hurry over, THEN people started running but no one made it.

The attitude needed for mythic content is one where you are constantly eager and first in line to help out, always ready to do mechanics. When I called out "2 needed" I want to see 4-5 people rushing forward, competing for that chance to do something else besides their rotation. The damage on the boss is completely irrelevant unless you hit enrage.

My advice to you is to try and be the guy you can always count on will do the mechanics and go the extra mile in helping out the raid even at the cost of their own individual performance. To me that's the most rewarding and what I value most in raiders.

[Yoshimiko]

So, take a step back and ask yourself what you're doing wrong. Some of the more basic reasons:

You're not optimizing GCD. This is a much larger issue I began to realize as I started looking at my guild's DPSers. They have open GCDs. This is insanely bad. Make sure you're ALWAYS hitting something.

You're not optimizing CDs. This is most notable with 5+ minute CDs. If the fight is going to take 7 minutes, you have a 2 minute window to optimize. Line up with opening burst & lust phase is generally the best plan. Hitting it on CD doesn't help if there's no possible way you can squeeze a 3rd in.

You're movement is poor/you have bad up time. This ones a bit tougher to fix and generally requires a shift in your playstyle. Move early and move fast. Use movement skills if necessary. Ranged instant casts if you have them, etc.

DPS isn't always the most important. This is really hard to drill into peoples heads. Sometimes you just have to lose DPS. It might *feel* bad, but sometimes you just need to do the mechanics. SOMEONE has to do them. From classic to today, there's always going to be some mechanic that'll make you lose DPS. Conveyers, finding beetles, soaking puddles, kiting, running, etc. The best raider is the one who can do what the group needs.

This is all assuming you've optimized your gear and enchants as much as you could, eating food, popping potions, etc. Item level isn't the end-all be-all. One of the better trinkets was a world drop, regardless of its ilvl, for quite a long time. Focus on what brings you the best damage, not the best ilvl.

Lastly: Simulate. How far off are you? I can say with a fair bit of confidence that the simulators are pretty accurate. I generally fell within 5-10% of my sims, and the %s lost are mostly because of how we used our buffs and handled mechanics.

[klaps_05]

Always aim to play with players better than yourself. Once you have surpassed your raid mates, compare yourself to those who outperform you regionally(realm/region). If you just join a "less skilled guild" you will start playing worse.

[Grobovshik]

DPS isnt impotant, my ass. 1% wipe on goroth yeasterday. God, if another tank do higher than 250k dps it would be a kill. Even tank dps matters.

[Geckoo]

I've always been aware that i'm not as good as other players from my raid when it comes to DPS, so i try to bring high survivability to the table or be someone you can trust to deal with certain mechanics. In terms of damage of course i try to improve, but it's OK to be a trustworthy team player with a mediocre DPS.

[Deleted]

There is no Concordance in 7.1.5. Poor trolling attempt. The guild broke up 1 week after I took my break, but hey keep on creating your own reality.

You know jack shit about me and you couldn't be farther from the truth. Keep your LFR hero judgment to yourself. We were clearing above and beyond the 1000+ rank you are playing at, or the median 66 percentile you perform at on farm content.

Ah well, if the guild broke up 1 week after you left, then it's no problem. Oh wait...
I'm sure you're ranking much higher in the DPS meters than me and helped out greatly with this dps while you were on break. Oh wait...

Anyway, difficult to compare as I don't know what your char name / server actually is.

[Logwyn]

Its not WW. Near bottom on Goroth but top 5 on 3 of the first 4 bosses. Pretty obvious now




Heh, it's not really forum users knowing my character more of any guildie browsing these boards. I'll be more than happy in fact if anyone on these forums can give me advice on how to improve.

I don't see how staying I play WW monk or Hunter or whatever will matter?

If you are WW monk and in the top 5. I'd say that their are others that need to step it up. From what I've read WW is suppose to be at the bottom like Ret Pally>?

[Deleted]

As a RL of a guild that also killed Goroth last night, you can't just look at a meter and judge a player fully. Of course dps matters a lot, but let me give you an example of what I mean. Let's say 2 melee players of them same class are doing Goroth M. Player A uses his immunity on the big AoE and instead of hiding he can just stay and nuke boss. Player B uses his immunity to run to the furthest brimstone and soak it. Who do you think does most dps and who do you think helps the most to kill the boss?

Obviously that's a specific example and an oversimplification but you get my point. DPS is just one metric of your performance but not the only metric.

[Deleted]

I feel sad when the game has come down to a DPS race between team members. I remember a day when no one really knew who was doing what DPS. It was more fun then.

It's also why Vaelastrasz was a guild killer despite being tragically easy mechanics wise

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I feel sad when the game has come down to a DPS race between team members. I remember a day when no one really knew who was doing what DPS. It was more fun then.

I started playing 2 weeks after TBC launch, and I don't remember this ever being a thing? Maybe during the early parts of Classic? Certainly didn't happen in TBC.

[Dracodraco]

There is no Concordance in 7.1.5. Poor trolling attempt. The guild broke up 1 week after I took my break, but hey keep on creating your own reality.

You know jack shit about me and you couldn't be farther from the truth. Keep your LFR hero judgment to yourself. We were clearing above and beyond the 1000+ rank you are playing at, or the median 66 percentile you perform at on farm content.

By "Concordance" it's quite obvious he's referring to the paragon trait.

That being said, the entire issue you're describing comes down to you rerolling without the time to put into gearing up a new character. Seems like a stupid choice to me, especially concidering hunters were just "okay" in nighthold. No fight in there that specifically needed one or benefitted greatly over any other.

As for OP, as long as the raidleaders taking you to fights, trust his judgement and not your own in terms of performance. You play either a shadow priest, warlock or boomkin with the descriptions you've given, and there's lots of stuff that can effect decisions for those -
Are you more reliable at giving out innervates to the healer so you can have them counter mechanics?
Are you better at calling out you're soaking things with your heavy cds (warlock, spriest)?
Do you wear legendaries that boosts not just yours, but also the raids' survivability (spriest helm)?

And so forth. All 3 specs also suffers HEAVILY under movement, which will likely be where you are fucking op compared to the other guy. If you can't find somewhere glaringly obvious that you're lacking behind in terms of uptimes etc, look at total casts done compared to the other guy. Chances are you do mechanics and run around more (Goroth is a fight that emphasizes movement to deal with mechanics well; Soak the zones, spawn pillars in good positions, move out with meteor debuffs, line up bowling balls etc) than the other guy, who prefers standing still and letting others deal with the mechanics for him / not spawn or soak shit in the right places, so he can optimize DPS.

I don't see how staying I play WW monk or Hunter or whatever will matter?

If you are WW monk and in the top 5. I'd say that their are others that need to step it up. From what I've read WW is suppose to be at the bottom like Ret Pally>?

Top 5 on harja+inqui. Near bottom on Goroth.

The only top 5 classes that overlaps both Harja and Goroth are Affliction locks, and balance druids. Both are near the bottom on goroth. Could also be shadow priest (it's #6 on harja, but last he checked it might have been #5 when it's that close). People saying WW monk are silly.

[Riistov]

I feel sad when the game has come down to a DPS race between team members. I remember a day when no one really knew who was doing what DPS. It was more fun then.

with half the raid afking through Molten Core, it was great I tell ya!

[hulkgor]

As long as people ignore mechanics to make sure they rank high (ie. ignoring the furthest orbs to soak on krosus), even causing multiple wipes for their guild, parses and rankings mean shit, in particular during progress.

[Logwyn]

By "Concordance" it's quite obvious he's referring to the paragon trait.

That being said, the entire issue you're describing comes down to you rerolling without the time to put into gearing up a new character. Seems like a stupid choice to me, especially concidering hunters were just "okay" in nighthold. No fight in there that specifically needed one or benefitted greatly over any other.

As for OP, as long as the raidleaders taking you to fights, trust his judgement and not your own in terms of performance. You play either a shadow priest, warlock or boomkin with the descriptions you've given, and there's lots of stuff that can effect decisions for those -
Are you more reliable at giving out innervates to the healer so you can have them counter mechanics?
Are you better at calling out you're soaking things with your heavy cds (warlock, spriest)?
Do you wear legendaries that boosts not just yours, but also the raids' survivability (spriest helm)?

And so forth. All 3 specs also suffers HEAVILY under movement, which will likely be where you are fucking op compared to the other guy. If you can't find somewhere glaringly obvious that you're lacking behind in terms of uptimes etc, look at total casts done compared to the other guy. Chances are you do mechanics and run around more (Goroth is a fight that emphasizes movement to deal with mechanics well; Soak the zones, spawn pillars in good positions, move out with meteor debuffs, line up bowling balls etc) than the other guy, who prefers standing still and letting others deal with the mechanics for him / not spawn or soak shit in the right places, so he can optimize DPS.




Top 5 on harja+inqui. Near bottom on Goroth.

The only top 5 classes that overlaps both Harja and Goroth are Affliction locks, and balance druids. Both are near the bottom on goroth. Could also be shadow priest (it's #6 on harja, but last he checked it might have been #5 when it's that close). People saying WW monk are silly.

Silly as in awesome dps??

[furiousferret]

So, take a step back and ask yourself what you're doing wrong. Some of the more basic reasons:

You're not optimizing GCD. This is a much larger issue I began to realize as I started looking at my guild's DPSers. They have open GCDs. This is insanely bad. Make sure you're ALWAYS hitting something.

You're not optimizing CDs. This is most notable with 5+ minute CDs. If the fight is going to take 7 minutes, you have a 2 minute window to optimize. Line up with opening burst & lust phase is generally the best plan. Hitting it on CD doesn't help if there's no possible way you can squeeze a 3rd in.

You're movement is poor/you have bad up time. This ones a bit tougher to fix and generally requires a shift in your playstyle. Move early and move fast. Use movement skills if necessary. Ranged instant casts if you have them, etc.

DPS isn't always the most important. This is really hard to drill into peoples heads. Sometimes you just have to lose DPS. It might *feel* bad, but sometimes you just need to do the mechanics. SOMEONE has to do them. From classic to today, there's always going to be some mechanic that'll make you lose DPS. Conveyers, finding beetles, soaking puddles, kiting, running, etc. The best raider is the one who can do what the group needs.

This is all assuming you've optimized your gear and enchants as much as you could, eating food, popping potions, etc. Item level isn't the end-all be-all. One of the better trinkets was a world drop, regardless of its ilvl, for quite a long time. Focus on what brings you the best damage, not the best ilvl.

Lastly: Simulate. How far off are you? I can say with a fair bit of confidence that the simulators are pretty accurate. I generally fell within 5-10% of my sims, and the %s lost are mostly because of how we used our buffs and handled mechanics.

Is there a chart that shows this stat?

I'm still trying to get used to this as an Elemental Shaman. My ST dps was low for a long time and I finally figured out it was my CPM (casts per minute) which is low even for Elemental Shamans. We can't really cast on the move (save for Icefury Frost Shocks) so high movement fights just kill our dps. I'm still learning to inch over gcd by gcd, but on fights like Avatar that's not possible.

As an Assassination Rogue, Frost Mage, Fury Warrior, and Enhance I parse well. Its just this damn spec where being glued to the ground is the key to high parses..