[Spoilers] Titans: alive, resurrected, or just memories?

[RyanEX]

The thing for me is this. Aggramar was "killed" before the others had a portion of their souls saved and fled to Azeroth. Now I can understand Sargeras trying to preserve and bring Aggramar around to his side since the two were close comrades after fighting the void for so long together.

But 1)How did he gain Eonar's soul to place into the Avatar and 2) why would he try to res her when lorewise the two of them disliked one another?

[Caerule]

Whatever is going on with them, it'll need to be reconciled with Chronicle. They were, supposedly, all destroyed and their souls were sent to Azeroth into the Titan Watchers. However, oddly, only the essence of Aman'thul made it all the way through, as Ra-Den was the only Watcher to get clear memories of the Titan that chose him. That, at least, can likely be reconciled with the likes of Aggramar and Eonar being on Argus.

That's not exactly what happened. All the souls made it to Azeroth, and tried to merge into a Keeper to prevent their souls from fading. This process suddenly halted, for reasons not given, leaving the reader to conclude their desperate attempt failed. The Keepers were left confused, but only Ra-den figured out what happened, driving him to depression because he drew the same conclusion that the reader was supposed to make.

The reason why the Titans failed is never stated however. It now seems to be because Sargeras discovered Norgannon's spellwork and reversed it, capturing their souls. It's the only explanation I can think of at least, because from the dungeon journal, these seem to be the actual souls of the Titans.

As others have stated we seem to be saving Eanor, fighting a brain-washed Aggramar, and given the abilities listed in the fight, saving the other Titans from the Shivarra council brain-washing them. It is likely that their souls were put into physical avatars. But it's also possible that their models will be given a transparent effect, and we're merely encountering their souls.

[Deleted]

That's not exactly what happened. All the souls made it to Azeroth, and tried to merge into a Keeper to prevent their souls from fading. This process suddenly halted, for reasons not given, leaving the reader to conclude their desperate attempt failed. The Keepers were left confused, but only Ra-den figured out what happened, driving him to depression because he drew the same conclusion that the reader was supposed to make.

The Keepers were infused with the Titans spirits, Ra was the only one that figured that. He even extracted the lingering part of Aman'thul from him and kept it safe inside the Vale's Vault. That's how Lei Shen got part of his power.

[Caerule]

The Keepers were infused with the Titans spirits, Ra was the only one that figured that. He even extracted the lingering part of Aman'thul from him and kept it safe inside the Vale's Vault. That's how Lei Shen got part of his power.

Indeed. But this wasn't the full Aman'thul. Only a small portion of the Titan spirits managed to fuse into the Keepers before the process inexplicably stopped. The Titans' plan failed.

[AbalDarkwind]

That's not exactly what happened. All the souls made it to Azeroth, and tried to merge into a Keeper to prevent their souls from fading. This process suddenly halted, for reasons not given, leaving the reader to conclude their desperate attempt failed. The Keepers were left confused, but only Ra-den figured out what happened, driving him to depression because he drew the same conclusion that the reader was supposed to make.

The reason why the Titans failed is never stated however. It now seems to be because Sargeras discovered Norgannon's spellwork and reversed it, capturing their souls. It's the only explanation I can think of at least, because from the dungeon journal, these seem to be the actual souls of the Titans.

As others have stated we seem to be saving Eanor, fighting a brain-washed Aggramar, and given the abilities listed in the fight, saving the other Titans from the Shivarra council brain-washing them. It is likely that their souls were put into physical avatars. But it's also possible that their models will be given a transparent effect, and we're merely encountering their souls.

Chronicle Vol.1 actually states that Sargeras did not know the Titans' souls survived. On page 50, it states "Unaware that the titans' spirits had survived, Sargeras declared the Burning Legion victorious." Furthermore, on page 54, it reiterates this by stating "Meanwhile, unbeknownst to Sargeras, the last embers of the Pantheon's power clung to life."

Now, it's possible that Sargeras noticed this "flare up" of Titan power, and immediately worked a counterspell against Norgannon's own spellwork, but it leaves very little wiggle room. This could, potentially, be a retcon of Chronicle if your theory is proven correct.

[Deleted]

Did we see a avatar of Azeroth? I know we got a avatar of Argus and AU Draenor.

[Gurluas]

Who knows what happened, perhaps Sargeras went to look for the Pantheon's souls later, and that's what stopped the transfer into the Keepers?
I noticed Aman'thul didn't have a model, and Aman'thul appears to be the one whose soul got transferred the most, as it was enough for Ra to notice.
So perhaps Sargeras didn't manage to capture Aman'thul or he got less of him than the others?

[TheFirstOnes]

They will show up in a flashback, since there is a uncorrupted Sargeras NPC with no model in the game files, but they're also back in the present. Their essences are part of the raid, Eonar and Aggramar being boss fights (defending Eonar, fighting Aggramar), while Aman'thul, Golganneth, Norgannon and Khaz'gorath are part of Coven of Shivarra fight and possibly the later ones aswell but we pretty much don't know anything about the raid's ending so too early to say.

I'm gonna call it RIGHT NOW....

We're gonna get a Questline on Sargeras, and his past. And, in the end of it all, we're going to get a Cinematic between Him, and the Pantheon on that Doom world....

Ending with Sargeras destroying the Pantheon's bodies.

We're likely going to get ANOTHER Cinematic with The Eredar leaders, mainly due to the young models, as well as Archimonde's thing saying "IGC" also.

So...we're gonna get 2 cinematic while questing? Hmm...

[Deleted]

Who knows what happened, perhaps Sargeras went to look for the Pantheon's souls later, and that's what stopped the transfer into the Keepers?
I noticed Aman'thul didn't have a model, and Aman'thul appears to be the one whose soul got transferred the most, as it was enough for Ra to notice.
So perhaps Sargeras didn't manage to capture Aman'thul or he got less of him than the others?

Aman'thul's model.

[Soulwind]

they just disappeared. It was never told that all titans are dead.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Pantheon#Th...f_the_Pantheon

"New" lore from Chronicles Vol.1 which they may be contradicting already.

[Kathranis]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Pantheon#Th...f_the_Pantheon

"New" lore from Chronicles Vol.1 which they may be contradicting already.

Yeah, Chronicle Vol. 1 didn't really leave much wiggle room for all of them to still exist, but it also seems a bit too soon to jump to conclusions.

There will definitely be flashbacks, based on what's been datamined, so that may account for most of their models appearing.

In the case of Eonar, her dungeon journal seems to indicate that the Legion is actually invading the world Eonar and trying to destroy her essence within, not that we're encountering her soul or avatar on Argus. Or maybe it's just worded weirdly.

Hopefully we get better explanations soon. I totally understand their desire to show us the Titans, but I don't want them to start retconning Chronicle almost as soon as the ink is dry.

[xChurch]

Not looking forward to seeing how to rectify the fact the Titan souls (save for Aggramar) were sent to Azeroth. Unless Odyn was working for the Legion and gave them to him or some contrived BS.

[KrazyK923]

What if we get through the raid, save Eonar and either save or kill Aggramar (Who seems to be fully corrupted), and Sargeras then unleashes Argus the Unmaker, the Titan we were not aware of. The second reason he approached the Eredar and turned them into his most powerful forces. What if there was a Titan soul on Argus that none of them were aware of, and that is really what Sargeras was after?

What if he unleashes Argus' full power against us and we stop it. Probably with the help of the Pantheon, all of whom have a model in 7.3 now? What if this finally convinces Sargeras that we can stop the Void Lords? What if this proves to him, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the champions of Azeroth, along with the Pantheon (Including himself) can stand against them?

What if the reason there is no Sargeras fight in the 7.4 raid is that we don't kill Sargeras? What if, like LITERALLY EVERY OTHER TITAN ENEMY WE'VE EVER FACED, he backs down? What if somehow Aman'thul and the rest of the Pantheon find a way to cleanse the Fel from within him? What if he joins us?

I feel like we've always just 100% assumed we would be killing Sargeras, IF we ever fought him, but what if we've been played all along? What if him and the Pantheon team back up and they try to stop the Void Lords?

Who knows, but after seeing this model, and seeing how there's no Sargeras fight in the final raid, this seems the most likely to myself. Assuming, of course, that "Argus the Unmaker" isn't just like Sargeras' soul twisted inside the planet of Argus itself.

~~~~~~~

This post assumes many things, including the "uncorrupted Sargeras" model not being a flashback. However it is tagged with the same IGC model as the current other Pantheon models, which seems suspicious to me. Meaning: Not like the corrupted Aggramar, but their pure selves. It could be that we're just getting a big raid cutscene with them all, but that's too easy to be interesting.

It's also a fanon theory that assumes many things we aren't aware of yet, so just fyi in your picking apart the pieces.

[Deleted]

If Aggramar died before, maybe his body is used as a vessel. Maybe some sort of "Avatar of Sargeras".

[Aucald]

Not looking forward to seeing how to rectify the fact the Titan souls (save for Aggramar) were sent to Azeroth. Unless Odyn was working for the Legion and gave them to him or some contrived BS.

My current thinking is that while "Chronicle Vol. 1" says a diminished scintilla of the Pantheon's essence reached the Keepers (with only enough of Aman'thul's essence reaching Highkeeper Ra to make him aware of what had happened at Nihilam), the actual reason for these essence not making the trip is because Sargeras caught or somehow captured them for his own purposes. It's these larger portions of the Pantheon's captured souls that we will be encountering on Argus - some of them having been successfully swayed by Sargeras and the others fighting against him.

That's my theory in any case - we'll see how it all actually plays out.

[Deleted]

I'm gonna call it RIGHT NOW....

We're gonna get a Questline on Sargeras, and his past. And, in the end of it all, we're going to get a Cinematic between Him, and the Pantheon on that Doom world....

Ending with Sargeras destroying the Pantheon's bodies.

We're likely going to get ANOTHER Cinematic with The Eredar leaders, mainly due to the young models, as well as Archimonde's thing saying "IGC" also.

So...we're gonna get 2 cinematic while questing? Hmm...

Well, hold your horses. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but IGC's aren't the cool pre-rendered cinematic cutscenes, like Varian's death and I don't recall models specifically made for these to get datamined in those PTR pushes. They're more like the little camera swings in the actual game world, trying to mimic a cutscene (like the Harrison Jones scenes in Uldum).

In which case, the past of the Triumvirate, fine - but if there IS backstory on Sargeras and his encounter/dispute with the other Pantheon members at Nihilam and it is just an IGC, it feels like wasted potential. It's a pretty huge moment in WoW's backstory regardless of the fact that it is a new bit of Lore in Chronicles - the Pantheon not being there is a pretty big reason we're constantly dealing with this bullshit, I'd wager. Knowing what happened (which we kinda do, thanks Magni) - and HOW it happened to them, is crucial and the drama of the moment and weight of the moment, does fit a pre-rendered IGC more than a simple IGC. Imo ofc.

[TheFirstOnes]

Well, hold your horses. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but IGC's aren't the cool pre-rendered cinematic cutscenes, like Varian's death and I don't recall models specifically made for these to get datamined in those PTR pushes. They're more like the little camera swings in the actual game world, trying to mimic a cutscene (like the Harrison Jones scenes in Uldum).

In which case, the past of the Triumvirate, fine - but if there IS backstory on Sargeras and his encounter/dispute with the other Pantheon members at Nihilam and it is just an IGC, it feels like wasted potential. It's a pretty huge moment in WoW's backstory regardless of the fact that it is a new bit of Lore in Chronicles - the Pantheon not being there is a pretty big reason we're constantly dealing with this bullshit, I'd wager. Knowing what happened (which we kinda do, thanks Magni) - and HOW it happened to them, is crucial and the drama of the moment and weight of the moment, does fit a pre-rendered IGC more than a simple IGC. Imo ofc.

Shows you just how powerful Sargeras is, alone....

[Dagoth Ur]

What if we get through the raid, save Eonar and either save or kill Aggramar (Who seems to be fully corrupted), and Sargeras then unleashes Argus the Unmaker, the Titan we were not aware of. The second reason he approached the Eredar and turned them into his most powerful forces. What if there was a Titan soul on Argus that none of them were aware of, and that is really what Sargeras was after?

What if he unleashes Argus' full power against us and we stop it. Probably with the help of the Pantheon, all of whom have a model in 7.3 now? What if this finally convinces Sargeras that we can stop the Void Lords? What if this proves to him, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the champions of Azeroth, along with the Pantheon (Including himself) can stand against them?

What if the reason there is no Sargeras fight in the 7.4 raid is that we don't kill Sargeras? What if, like LITERALLY EVERY OTHER TITAN ENEMY WE'VE EVER FACED, he backs down? What if somehow Aman'thul and the rest of the Pantheon find a way to cleanse the Fel from within him? What if he joins us?

I feel like we've always just 100% assumed we would be killing Sargeras, IF we ever fought him, but what if we've been played all along? What if him and the Pantheon team back up and they try to stop the Void Lords?

Who knows, but after seeing this model, and seeing how there's no Sargeras fight in the final raid, this seems the most likely to myself. Assuming, of course, that "Argus the Unmaker" isn't just like Sargeras' soul twisted inside the planet of Argus itself.

~~~~~~~

This post assumes many things, including the "uncorrupted Sargeras" model not being a flashback. However it is tagged with the same IGC model as the current other Pantheon models, which seems suspicious to me. Meaning: Not like the corrupted Aggramar, but their pure selves. It could be that we're just getting a big raid cutscene with them all, but that's too easy to be interesting.

It's also a fanon theory that assumes many things we aren't aware of yet, so just fyi in your picking apart the pieces.

I am almost 100% certain something like this will happen and we won't kill him.

Us defeating Sargeras is probably too hard to pull of without cheesiness and deus ex machina empowerments and Blizzard probably doesn't want to open that can of worms.

Also people think that because Burning Legion story arc is about to end, that it exclusively means that Sargeras is gone too, which doesn't have to be. Sargeras could easly fit into Void story-arcs because that's what he's all about.

I like your idea about Sargeras realising we can defeat the Void after we kill Argus the Unmaker.
The only thing I would like better is that Argus the Unmaker is not Argus' world soul, because that would be little out of the blue imo, but Sargeras experimenting with other titan's essences in purpose to create new titan/avatar/whatever which would serve under him.

I mean it would make sense considering there's that titan builder npc.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I mean, there ARE some possibilities left open; we know the Pantheon's spirits reached the azeroth constructs but then their essences dissipated. Was it because their keepers weren't able to hold in their awesome essences? and did this Titan essences "vanished" or went somewhere else? If so, could Sargeras have harnessed them back with their remains after discovering their escape?

[Alanar]

Aman'thul's model.

The only good thing about this model is the skin color and THE beard! ( I mean look at Velens beard lawll this one aint glued on.) why is he in blue and so blank? He should look a little bit more interesting than that right?