Sin/Sub in M+

[Deleted]

So both are currently doing well in ToS, but since im not so much of a raider im asking how they perform in m+. Are the viable vs Outlaw at all ?

[Deleted]

all specs are viable for m+

[shaunika123]

sub is insane for M+ im usually pulling like 1.3-1.5 mil overall depending on the instance(922 ilvl)
cloak+shoulder for trash swap in bracer for boss

[Immunize]

Sub isn't only really good damage wise, it's also way more fun in comparison to sin imo.

Outlaw for heavy trash pack instances is nice aswell. But sub with MoS/NS/DS/DFA build does insane AoE and ST damage
and plays really well.

Sin is clunky and boring. But im biased against that spec

[ScrubRouge]

Subt DFA build is amazing for M+. I would say its better than outlaw when it comes to pushing high keys. Their sustained aoe that converts into ST is massive and far less AR Burst reliant like outlaw.
if you are doing massive pulls and just blowing though low keys, then outlaw might be the way to go, but if you are trying to "progress" through M+ then Subt is recommended.

[lolpve]

I'm doing the nightstalker+DFA build with cloak and vigor ring and it seems overpowered in m+ honestly, can't even imagine what it's like with mantle.

[Deleted]

I think Sub is one of the strongest M+ specs in the game right now. The combination of cloak/shoulders/dfa with taking damage talents gives disgusting burst.

As an example, you know the rat pack in Arcway? I ran a +14 fortified run yesterday, normally a pug at this point (in my experience) has 1-2 people die because the rats hurt so much. I stroll in with fully stacked cloak, popped a horn of valor (about 4.5k agi) and did shadow dance -> shuriken storm -> dfa and they were all dead in 2 seconds with 15 million DPS done. No other DPS even got to touch them.

Plus if big numbers make your willy feel big then you just have to go Sub, no question (hello 50 mil crit on Dantalionax).

[Deleted]

Try to get that trinket from ToS(can't remember the name, but it got this swirling animation around you, dealing AoE on use). That with Mantle could be incredible OP(if the effect stacks with the crit chance increase).

[ElvisOnMars]

Guys, sorry for stealing the topic a bit, but could you please advice on a few tips for M+ trash as sub with Mantle Cloak?

1) do we open with Shadow Strike or sh storm?
2) do we NB at least 1 target after it or go straight for DFA?
3) where do we place SD on trash openers? before storms or before DFA landing?
4) keep Shadow blades for boss or use on trash too?

[Deleted]

Guys, sorry for stealing the topic a bit, but could you please advice on a few tips for M+ trash as sub with Mantle Cloak?

1) do we open with Shadow Strike or sh storm?
2) do we NB at least 1 target after it or go straight for DFA?
3) where do we place SD on trash openers? before storms or before DFA landing?
4) keep Shadow blades for boss or use on trash too?

Disclaimer: these answers are based on what I do, and I am in no way claiming it's the best thing to do.

1) M+ I'm assuming you're taking "Deep Shadow" talent, so open with a shadowstrike and immediately use Symbols and then pop Shadow Dance before Shuriken Storming. If you really want you can create a cancel aura on stealth instead of shadowstriking (Because you can't pop Shadow Dance whilst in stealth, and you REALLY want that +30% damage buff on your cloak opening).

2) If the pack's going to die quickly (e.g. slimes/giblins/murlocs/crabs in EoA) then DfA, if you've got a chunky add in the pack that will take a while then NB as you're going to be funneling some fat Eviscerates into it.

3) Always pop Shadow Dance before your Shuriken Storm, with cloak/shoulders your Shuriken Storm is going to be hitting hard, also the DfA aoe hits hard too. Ideally on large packs you want to include both Shuriken Storm and the AOE part of DfA in your shadow dances.

4) If you're lazy just save it for bosses. Otherwise use common sense, you're pretty much always going to want Shadow Blades ready for a boss, but if you know it's going to be 3 minutes before the next boss then use Shadow Blades on trash, it's a nice dps increase on trash packs smaller than 5/6. A good example of using Shadow Blades not on a boss is Court of Stars, I'll usually use it on one of the Fel bound enforcers and mini bosses and it'll be up in time for Talixae.

[ElvisOnMars]

Thanks a lot for reply, trolollollo

M+ I'm assuming you're taking "Deep Shadow" talent

. I believe we speak about Dark Shadow, yes Im sticking to it.

Speaking of packs with fat mobs (let's say 12+ keys), do you sttop storming and start stacking cloak buff when the pack is around 30% hp? Or the shurkiken combo too strong to miss and its buffs payoff even if we dont stack until pack dead?

[Deleted]

Thanks a lot for reply, trolollollo

. I believe we speak about Dark Shadow, yes Im sticking to it.

Speaking of packs with fat mobs (let's say 12+ keys), do you sttop storming and start stacking cloak buff when the pack is around 30% hp? Or the shurkiken combo too strong to miss and its buffs payoff even if we dont stack until pack dead?

This is an excellent question. I would say in a it's generally best to keep using shuriken storm on larger (say 4+) packs because of the sheer damage eviscerate does and the shadow dance charges it generates by using a finisher every 2 seconds.

The real answer I believe requires you to "think ahead" and works best when you have friends who will work with you on it. An example of where you may choose to hold off your Shuriken Storming on a large pack (and I do this) is after Serpentrix in Eye of Azshara. You'll most likely pull a crab pack before going in the cave - at this point I don't Shuriken storm (I will use DfA though, of course) and I rely on my friends to kill these ones. Then when you go into the cave have your tank pull all the giblins and the patrolling murloc pack - this pack is far larger than the crab pack earlier and you should have 30 stacks saved up by this point and you can get much better use out of your cloak this way.

Another one I absolutely love doing is keeping cloak equipped for first boss of VotW on non-tyrannical (because he'll die in like 40 seconds assuming good group and not insanely high key) and you'll have 30 stacks ready for the imp room - this is mostly for number padding and fun though cause imps are easy to kill regardless :P.

[Deleted]

But still all specs are viable for M+, even the higher ones.

[Deleted]

Played al 3 spec, got BIS legendarys for al 3 spec, in myt + I mainly do +14 mytics and up. Sub is in 7.25 FAR superior to any other spec in terms of burst AOE and ST boss dmg combo. dance into vanish and a 30 stacked 4m shuriken storm to al targets with shadownova folowed by a DFA 3m to al targets shoulders folowed by dance SS spam and funneled evis give unchallanged dps. Had a 2m dps total BRH run and several 1,5m arcway runs.

BTW Engine from TOS with its 6,5k agility with a pot give some insane bursts

[Deleted]

Sub is quite good right now in m+. But I do roughly the same overall on outlaw. And my affliction wl twink (quite well equipped) does about the same dmg. Also my guildee warriors and boomkins still do a lot more aoe. Sub is very nice right now, though if trash is still alive after your initial burst you will see a quick drop of your dps.

[RobertoCarlos]

BTW Engine from TOS with its 6,5k agility with a pot give some insane bursts

I'm liking engine A LOT, the proc rate seems crazy and its very easy to extend its duration to 20sec. Plus passive mastery. Think ill be using this with specter

[Spikiera]

Sub isn't only really good damage wise, it's also way more fun in comparison to sin imo.

Outlaw for heavy trash pack instances is nice aswell. But sub with MoS/NS/DS/DFA build does insane AoE and ST damage
and plays really well.

Sin is clunky and boring. But im biased against that spec

That's some really heavy biasing...sin spec may be boring, but clunky? Come on bro

[badgersmashr]

I'm liking engine A LOT, the proc rate seems crazy and its very easy to extend its duration to 20sec. Plus passive mastery. Think ill be using this with specter

I use this trinket as well for single target but i also find umbral moonglaives for multitarget is quite bonkers, on Heroic KJ attemptd I've been getting 45mil+ from only 3 uses a fight, usually more, definitely not a trinket to underestimate IMO

[Immunize]

That's some really heavy biasing...sin spec may be boring, but clunky? Come on bro

In comparison to Sub, it is as clunky as it can be.

Several Major CD's (KB, Vend, TB, Vanish) all on another timer. KB and Vend (with CoF) reducing their cooldowns based on how lucky you with proccs and how many finishers you get out (KB trait).

On top of that there is PB and BotA randomness. Add some NBF trinket rng into it and you get the most clunky spec ever to be seen in WoW (imo!)

It's not just that I am burnt out from the spec after playing it since EN. It's just dumb design.

[Desolatore]

I like murder with trinkets aoe and cloak