[TV] Doctor Who

[mvaliz]

To be clear, my criticism wasn't leveraged at what they were promoting, only HOW they do it. Yes Doctor Who (and various spinoffs) have always been progressive. That's fine. But they didn't used to go about quite so ham-fisted and blatant (especially not in Doctor Who).

You know... I want to counter this, but you are right. Though I would rather use the term "Obvious" than "Blatant". It could definetly use some better writing to help patch it in without having to write things on a 2x4 and hit you in the forehead with it. :P

While there were some blatant things in Classic Who (Again, the Time Monster hit you over the head with feminist anti-male views via one character :P) I'll also admit those moments were sprinkled a little less frequently than here. :P

EDIT: Oh, and on an amusing note - I kinda caught Moff as being amusingly kinda racist against Sontarans in this story! So, why is it that Jennie and Vastra are in the Doctor's Flashback, but not Strax!? >_<

[De Lupe]

You know... I want to counter this, but you are right. Though I would rather use the term "Obvious" than "Blatant". It could definetly use some better writing to help patch it in without having to write things on a 2x4 and hit you in the forehead with it. :P

While there were some blatant things in Classic Who (Again, the Time Monster hit you over the head with feminist anti-male views via one character :P) I'll also admit those moments were sprinkled a little less frequently than here. :P

EDIT: Oh, and on an amusing note - I kinda caught Moff as being amusingly kinda racist against Sontarans in this story! So, why is it that Jennie and Vastra are in the Doctor's Flashback, but not Strax!? >_<

Has he ever called out for the Doctor before? It was a flashback of people calling his name. I genuinely can't remember a point where Strax has called him anything other then "sir".



Anyways, I loved the three different generations of Cybermen coming together. That was adorably threatening.

The Masters killing each other was funny... Admittedly, I thought they'd get back to his Tardis and THEN she'd kill him at which point she'd come back and save the Doctor, so I was a little surprised when happened, but not surprised that it did.

Kinda wish Bill has stayed a Cyber and died, just to show that not everything can be fixed with a happy ending. Also, we haven't had an actual death of a lead companion yet...you know, since Clara is running around time and space with Me, her heart frozen in time forever in that last beat...and Rose is still alive in another dimension, happy with her Doctor clone...and Martha is with her family on Earth...and DONNA COME BACK! *CRIES* Granted, Amy and Rory are dead, but they got to live full lives in the past and died of old age, so it doesn't count. But, in the end, I guess space-water-Bill is alright...

Last thirty seconds... Biggest smile on my face and all I can say is "what!?" over and over on repeat. I want Christmas here now!

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I like to pretend the Matt Smith abomination never happened.....Such a talentless annoying prick, thinks acting is just, literally, waving his hands in the air. Cant do serious, cant do intimidating, cant do angry....just stupid.

It was doctor who for 3year olds.....

"Madman in a Box" Doctor is what got me into the show. I loved Smith's personality. He was an old, broken man trying desperately to re-claim his youth and Smith was perfect.

Love Tennant, Eccleston, and Capaldi. I even enjoyed Hurt for his little stint. But, when I picture the Doctor in my head, Smith is the one that comes to mind first. Smith is MY Doctor.

[mvaliz]

There's one problem with that picture. It leaves out people who quit watching after "I hate this guy".

As much as I loved Capaldi, it sadly took me until Season 2 to like him, and that was because how differently they penned him. The vast majority of my friends sadly quit Doctor Who before getting to Capaldi's end of the first season, nevermind the second season... and honestly I can't blame them. As much as I tell them that Capaldi changed a WHOLE lot in his second season - the damage was already done in their minds. All they saw for one season was a totally un-fun, very insensetive jackass.

As I said to my friends after Capaldi's first episode - they forgot the history of the show, and pulled a "Sixth Doctor" all over again...

That's the one big difference that Moff forgot with Capaldi - the same when JNT forgot (or deliberately ignored) when penning the 6th Doctor. They were so focused on making something different, they ended up removing what made the Doctor somebody we loved - a person who's absolutely fun to be with while simultaneously fighting for what's right with moral kindness - not moral ambiguity.

[Deleted]

They were so focused on making something different, they ended up removing what made the Doctor somebody we loved - a person who's absolutely fun to be with while simultaneously fighting for what's right with moral kindness - not moral ambiguity.

Yeah, I never found much fun in Capaldi either. He does have his moments, as he should, but I've laughed less over the course of 3 Capaldi seasons than I did Eccleston's one. So I can understand if a lot of New Whos decided to stop watching. I've thought about it too, but when I heard he was leaving, I was satisfied just sticking it out for now. But of course, that could change with the next one. Regardless of male or female, young or old, if it takes too long to "find" the personality of the next Doctor, I'm probably out too.

[eschatological]

Now, on topic of the finale - in regards to the cliffhanger ending and lead-in for the Christmas episode - I'm kinda shocked I didn't realize it before, but when the 1st Doctor (Played by David Bradley! Yay for his return! :P) first appears, he is also shouting "I will NOT change, I will NOT! No, no, no, no...the whole thing is ridiculous!"

At first, I thought he was just mocking Peter Capaldi - but then again when I was looking at the environment it suddenly hit me! This wasn't some random ice planet, and I realized the 1st Doctor WASN'T mocking Capaldi! He was talking about HIMSELF!!!

I'm thinking this setting is Antarctica, 1985 - in the middle of the episode [I]the Tenth Planet[/I]! And the 1st Doctor is by himself, talking to himself with comming to terms with his imminent first regeneration! =D

Damn, this christmass episode is going to be something serious! (also means we will prolly be seeing the Mondasian Cybermen again in that episode as well)

Wasn't that one of the lost episodes of Who? Like, I'm not that old, but I remember trying to watch from the First Doctor and that very first regeneration was lost to genuine film history or something.

[Arrowstormen]

There's more than one problem, I never thought "I hate this guy", nor "Best. Doctor. Ever.", nor... well... anything else on that chart actually o.o

I always find it really odd, and never understand why that kind of chart always comes up when talking about Doctor Who. I pay much more attention to companions that to the Doctor himself, they're the ones who make a season great or bad, much more than the Doctor himself (which is actually why I was really bored by some of Smith's episodes, was more bad companions that bad Doctor).

Amy + Rory are my favorite companions personally. Partially because I think having a trio in the TARDIS beats having a duo. I wasn't a big fan of any of the companions Tennant had, Martha was the best, but she was handicapped a lot by the annoying romance subplot of her being into the Doctor, but the Doctor being too busy mourning the loss of Rose.

I have enjoyed Capaldi's Doctor, I might still like Smith and Tennant more, but I can't get behind people who were overly disappointed in his run or quit the show because of it.

I have also enjoyed Moffat's run (Season 5 - Season 7.5 is still my favorite period of the show), and I've appreciated that he's tried to keep trying new things, but it is time for a new showrunner, I just hope I'll like his take on it.

[Deleted]

Wasn't that one of the lost episodes of Who? Like, I'm not that old, but I remember trying to watch from the First Doctor and that very first regeneration was lost to genuine film history or something.

Episode 4/4 was lost, the other three were fine. I have the 4th one as a partial reconstruction as I think some sequences still existed along with a number of stills and the complete audio track.

[eschatological]

But 4/4 was the one with the actual regeneration in it, isn't it?

Methinks the Christmas special will be about partially reconstructing that lost episode about the very first regeneration, and helping Capaldi's Doctor come to grips with him constantly being someone new. One of the frustrations the Doctor seemed to be expressing in this last episode was the idea of coming to terms with being something new, and it's mirrored in Bill, who says "If I'm not me, I don't want to keep living." That's kind of parallel to what the Doctor is feeling, I think. He's tired of rediscovering who he is, every time he regenerates. He even echoes the lines of Tennant ("I don't want to go") and I'm assuming the other lines he uttered in the TARDIS echoed Eccleston and Smith as well, when they left/arrived, although I didn't go back and check.

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EDIT: To add on to that, if Tennant is "the one who remembers" and Smith is "the one who tries to forget," I'd say Capaldi is "the one who's tired/stopped caring" about all the lives he's destroyed, and is just trying to live his life to the credo he believes in ("above all, kindness.")

[Deleted]

He even echoes the lines of Tennant ("I don't want to go") and I'm assuming the other lines he uttered in the TARDIS echoed Eccleston and Smith as well, when they left/arrived, although I didn't go back and check.

I did, and he didn't. He was insisting that he "will NOT change", but other than that, his only reference (at least to new era Doctors) was "I don't want to go" and "It's started" by Tennant.

When Eccleston left, his last words were an explanation to Rose and the viewers about what's going to happen and then he told her she was Fantastic and so was he. Tennant arrives, notices his new teeth and then continues the conversation from earlier about going to Barcelona, the planet. When Smith arrives, his first words are about still having a body, not being a girl and still not ginger. His farewell speech is all about remembering himself, both as an actor and character, and the final words are "I will always remember when the Doctor was me", then Amy arrives, says "raggedy man, goodnight" and he changes into Capaldi without a word. And of course he complained about the colour of his kidneys.

[eschatological]

Doesn't Capaldi also echo the line "The Doctor was me"?

[Deleted]

Doesn't Capaldi also echo the line "The Doctor was me"?

He starts saying "I'm the Doctor, watch me..." but never finishes that line. I know it's from somewhere else and I know there's more to the line, but which Doctor and what it is I can't remember. But it's not a first/last word thing.

[Arrowstormen]

Nah, I just watched the episode, he definitely repeats Smith's last words (or some of his last words). I'm not super well-versed in mottos and things classic Doctors used to say, but I suspect the entire episode had him saying things old Doctors used to say. The jelly-baby was one, and I think his "the original, you might say" line is something the First Doctor also has said, besides when he just said it at the end of the episode.

[Gallahadd]

So thanks to a good friend of mine... a bear that is rather adept at tunnelling, I managed to watch the Doctor Who finale...

LOVED it. I'd read a few non spoilers reviews and was expecting it to be terrible, but it was actually hands down Capaldi's best finale yet, and probably one of his best episodes.

So many great performances... Capaldi delivered about four killer speeches, each more epic than the last.

The Master was on amazing form, it seems now he's been cured of his drumming induced madness, he's turned into the king of the trolls, which is just how the character should be!

Missy was, as always, superb. I REALLY wish we could have had more of the Missy Redemption arc, it would have given the whole thing WAY more impact if we'd seen her slowly turn to the good side, only to fall back into her wicked ways once she was back with herself (they had AMAZING chemistry, btw) and then turn again at the last minute... only to fall.

Bill was almost the star of the show, and had nearly as many excellent moments as Capaldi did. Her final goodbye with The Pilot was excellent, and I LOVE that they brought the first episode right back into the finale.

Hell, you know how you know this episode was great? Even Nardole... even fucking NARDOLE was good!

Then, we have the only tiny little problem I had with the episode... it suffered a bit from "return of the king" syndrome, where it had about ten false endings... but then Capaldis almost regeneration sequence, where he quoted Smith and Tennants final lines, plus a number of other callbacks was fantastic.

And then his final "I don't want to change anymore!" Was gut wrenching... only to be met with the very first Doctor! Or... Filch, as we now know him.

The Christmas special is going to be amazing.

P.s. As I was setting the episode up I accidently skipped ahead to the last few minutes. I managed to restart before I saw anything spoilery... but I DID get a flash of shoulder length brown hair and a sensible jumper. Spent the whole episode petrified that fucking Clara was going to turn up XD

[Deleted]

Nah, I just watched the episode, he definitely repeats Smith's last words (or some of his last words). I'm not super well-versed in mottos and things classic Doctors used to say, but I suspect the entire episode had him saying things old Doctors used to say.

Having rewatched the TARDIS sequence a couple of times from the moment he wakes up after the people yelling DOCTOR montage, he MIGHT actually be saying "I'm the Doctor and the Doctor was me" twice. First few times I heard it like WATCH instead of WAS, which lead to my previous comment here, but the way Capaldi speaks in the low tones, it's not always clear which words are actually coming out of his mouth. Could be both, really. Or it could have been "I'm the Doctor and the Doctor was me. When he was me". Whatever that would mean in this context, no clue.

[Arrowstormen]

I feel like the episode also hinted towards a female Doctor coming up next, but that might just be wishful thinking.

[Deleted]

So thanks to a good friend of mine... a bear that is rather adept at tunnelling, I managed to watch the Doctor Who finale...

Slightly off-topic, but the ship is still floating quite well

Spent the whole episode petrified that fucking Clara was going to turn up XD

And that's one of the best things about this kind of show. With the always changing Doctor and Companion actors, if you hate one, you know they will eventually go away, unlike most regular shows where the same cast just keeps going on and on for years, unless they get written off. I actually liked Clara. I was sad to see her go, but the way she went, there's a small chance she (and Me) may come back later on. You can be happy she's gone, I'll be sad that she's gone, and you'll be happy that she's gone, but I think we can both agree that it's always exciting whenever a new Companion arrives.

[Adoxe]

I feel like the episode also hinted towards a female Doctor coming up next, but that might just be wishful thinking.

Yeah.. Master constantly talking about turning into a woman and asking if the future is all woman when Doctor/Missy keep referring to CyberBill as "her". I feel like its foreshadowing Female Doctor.

[eschatological]

Well, the whole episode set up this "What is my identity?" sort of theme. Bill thinks in a single mode: she can't imagine just being a Cyberman - if she's not her, she doesn't want to live. The Master is kind of immature, wondering why he'd become a woman, implying he's getting hard being with Missy, questioning why she wouldn't remember becoming a woman - to which Missy responds, "Oh, is that what I am? A woman?" Missy is supposed to be the "evolved" version of The Master. Still bad, but working on it. The Master even says at one point, "Is this the future? All girls?" and the Doctor replies, "We can only hope."

The whole impetus of the Doctor not wanting to regenerate, where he'd rather die (he blows up the whole floor saying "Let it go," is because he doesn't want to be so fractured - his identity scattered across 12 different, complete persons. He's lived all the lives a normal Timelord should have - maybe it's always been 11 regenerations for a reason, because after 11, no one, not even the Timelords, can deal with the utter fractioning of self. In many ways, it draws parallels to Voldemort and his Horcruxes, where he shatters his soul so much he cannot be human any more.

[Kelimbror]

Having rewatched the TARDIS sequence a couple of times from the moment he wakes up after the people yelling DOCTOR montage, he MIGHT actually be saying "I'm the Doctor and the Doctor was me" twice. First few times I heard it like WATCH instead of WAS, which lead to my previous comment here, but the way Capaldi speaks in the low tones, it's not always clear which words are actually coming out of his mouth. Could be both, really. Or it could have been "I'm the Doctor and the Doctor was me. When he was me". Whatever that would mean in this context, no clue.

He is repeating 10 and 11's last lines. He says "I don't want to go" and "I'll always remember when the Doctor was me". It echoes the theme building up this season of the Doctor being him, being Capaldi.

Speaking of which, I absolutely hated Bill's deus ex nonsense ending. I was sorta touched by getting to go full circle and getting her gay love fulfillment, but having magic space oil comment 'it's just atoms' implying that they are basically God and greater than everything we've ever seen on the show was too much. That was like Moffat's Mary Sue fantasy going into overdrive. Ignoring that and magic oil tears, all the other character arcs were amazing.

I knew when Bill stated not wanting to be alive if she couldn't be herself that it was foreshadowing and they handled Capaldi fighting regeneration brilliantly. His speech was very amazing and I felt so much emotion seeing that even though he didn't get to Simm, Missy was back to being his best friend and cared for him. All in all I am very happy with the way Moffat handled all of these characters in the end. It was a very sobering departure from his hack job of the last couple of seasons.

I will definitely miss Capaldi now, seeing some brilliant writing finally given to him. He was certainly the Doctor, through and through. For once I hope we never find out who the new Doctor is until the episode airs, but I know that won't happen.

[Arrowstormen]

Well, the whole episode set up this "What is my identity?" sort of theme. Bill thinks in a single mode: she can't imagine just being a Cyberman - if she's not her, she doesn't want to live. The Master is kind of immature, wondering why he'd become a woman, implying he's getting hard being with Missy, questioning why she wouldn't remember becoming a woman - to which Missy responds, "Oh, is that what I am? A woman?" Missy is supposed to be the "evolved" version of The Master. Still bad, but working on it. The Master even says at one point, "Is this the future? All girls?" and the Doctor replies, "We can only hope."

The whole impetus of the Doctor not wanting to regenerate, where he'd rather die (he blows up the whole floor saying "Let it go," is because he doesn't want to be so fractured - his identity scattered across 12 different, complete persons. He's lived all the lives a normal Timelord should have - maybe it's always been 11 regenerations for a reason, because after 11, no one, not even the Timelords, can deal with the utter fractioning of self. In many ways, it draws parallels to Voldemort and his Horcruxes, where he shatters his soul so much he cannot be human any more.

I like that perspective. Although a normal Time Lord has thirteen lives, which means if you include the War Doctor, Capaldi is the last life he should have had, so it makes sense that he's just sort of tired of it all, and that he's an older Doctor than he's been in a while. Will be interesting to see what they do with the interactions between the first Doctor and the thirteenth Doctor.