Is WoW getting easier or players are getting better?

[Deleted]

If the player base lost DBM/other addons that help them navigate shit, then current WoW on Mythic would be a nightmare. Hell, even heroic/normal would be horrible!
The game is WAAAAY fucking harder, but players are also better in my opinion. Mostly because there is a lot more information out there for people to use.

It's interesting how much you can figure out in a boss fight if you turn your in-game dialogue volume up. Pretty much every important ability a raid boss does has a voice-line attached to it.

[ImpTaimer]

Most top wow players are actually terrible without the help of addons and sims. Most wow players are terrible period without voice chat.

FF14 even bans people for using dps meters during content, especially new/progression content. FF14 is a much more flexible game to be fair since you're locked to a character, not a class.

Addons should just be banned for rated pvp and mythic raids. They already disable many features for instanced content to begin with.

Just like the Diablo 3 debacle how the devs pussed out and didn't ban top streamers for using Turbohud. Devs don't care as long as money is being made.

Data mining / spoiling is the core reason for the game being easier and players being "better" either way.

[Netherling]

It's a combination of the game being easier and players having more practice.

In Classic, many classes had no self-healing, no "Oh-Shit" buttons to save themselves, and little to no mobility abilities. Not to mention all the other homogenization that has gone on. Classes are SO much more versatile and adaptable comparatively.

There's no threat management, no mana management, spell down-ranking, no resistances, less stats thresholds that are required to be met, no more consumables that need to be used/farmed, gear drops in abundance now, PTR testing is rampant and spoils the entire fight and progression before the fight even goes live, etc., etc.

Another variable is addons. Weakauras basically plays the game for you. It completely trivializes boss fights and your rotations. I have absolutely no respect for the "skill" of hardcore raiders now-a-days when they get told what to do step by step with flashing lights all over their screens.

We used stopwatches to time boss mechanics in Classic with little to no addons. We were also on toaster computers with low fps, lag spikes, dial-up internet connections, and had to manage way more people per raid. Raiders now-a-days have nothing on us veterans.

The game is absolutely easier and less punishing for the aforementioned reasons and more.

I completely agree with 90% of this (all except the respect for modern raiders) and I'm quoting it because I think it's so important to the discussion. Classes have so many more tools now, so boss mechanics CAN be more complicated. The game (in general) is definitely easier now but mythic bosses are harder than vanilla bosses.

[Emerald Archer]

From recent memory, Gul'Dan was all about attrition and a 14+ minute battle with your own concentration.
The "bosses are harder than ever" slogan is a myth. Addons make up for a loooot of work nowadays. WeakAuras and other conveniences.

Ragnaros Heroic is in no way harder than most if what we've seen since then. That's six years of standstill.

Addons and Weakauras have nothing to do with how hard blizzard designs a boss to be. Just because we find things to abuse, to make it easier, doesn't mean the boss design is easy.

But even with Addons and Weakauras, bosses are harder, but we outgear them faster.

[ImpTaimer]

I completely agree with 90% of this (all except the respect for modern raiders) and I'm quoting it because I think it's so important to the discussion. Classes have so many more tools now, so boss mechanics CAN be more complicated. The game (in general) is definitely easier now but mythic bosses are harder than vanilla bosses.

Mechanically harder, but not numerically.

The reason raids were so much larger/harder in vanilla is because it exists as a way to curb ilvl power creep. Rather than giving players more powerful gear to move forward, you made them group with more people to take the content down. Because gear dropped so sparingly between 40 players, you could only hope to fully gear one of each class (as the devs intended) with tier gear and everyone else was stuck wearing off-pieces until the raid was on farms.

Classes do not have more tools than they did in vanilla, not by a long shot. Have you played Warrior? Even Druid had just bars and bars full of abilities that they HAD to use to compete with other classes, unlike now where they still have by far the most tools and yet they are not "taxed" for it like in vanilla (late vanilla Druid and for pretty much the rest of WoW have been OP/top class no point arguing it). Death Grip is the only meaningful class mechanic added that would be considered game-breaking in vanilla/bc.

[Alvito]

Bosses are easier. Addons are better. People tend to overgear shit. Thats the gist of it

Well luckily we have a fight that is pretty close to apples to apples. Thadius and Maiden, the big difference was instead of just making people run from one side to the other you now have to stack for a hammer, dodge swirls, deal with bombs and collect and dodge orbs. If you dropped a fight like Maiden into Naxx people would have quit raiding then and there.

[sam86]

Both, but players getting better is way more than wow getting easier
As someone who was hardcore raider in older times, I (sadly) admit if I had the access to all info we have today, bosses would been far easier

Bosses are definitely not easier

Bosses are 'easier' as not that much rng random f8ck you like before, for example vael the guildbreaker

[zezel81]

I think ppl believe that was the dark ages. We had DBM, bartender, dmg meter, and other addons. I would say the bosses did get easier/more forgiving and over gearing as well.

[alturic]

I think ppl believe that was the dark ages. We had DBM, bartender, dmg meter, and other addons. I would say the bosses did get easier/more forgiving and over gearing as well.

Yea, I don't understand people talking about "addons" being a factor. I remember all the same addons back in the day that are there now. There's just more of them, but the mainstay UI/raiding addons always existed. CTRT anyone?

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When has it taken months for the world first guilds to kill something?

Seriously? You can tell you're definitely a wrath baby. Hell, there was bosses in Wrath that took more than a month even.

[alturic]

Because I didn't keep up with world first guilds when I first started playing? I started a couple weeks before BC.

Pretty nice non-answer there though. Why are you replying if you're just going to be an ass about it?

Your response sounded like 'lulwut? it never took more than 2 weeks to kill a boss'. If you want a real answer, here you go:

More than 2 months:
#1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
#2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
#3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
#3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
#5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009

More than 1 month:
#6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
#7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
#8 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
#9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
#10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
#11 Kael'thas Sunstrider <Lord of the Blood Elves> - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007

More than 2 weeks:
#12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
#13 Lady Vashj <Coilfang Matron> - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
#14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
#15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006

More than 1 week
#16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
#16 tied Hydross the Unstable <Duke of Currents> - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
#16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
#16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
#20 tied Archimonde <The Defiler> - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
#20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
#22 tied Mimiron Firefighter 25 - 8 days from Ensidia's first pull. May 1st 2009
#22 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006
#22 tied Gruul the Dragonkiller - 8 days from Maulgar's death. 3rd February 2007

[vsb]

At one point bosses are much harder to execute. I'm raiding 10 years and it's getting harder and harder for me, despite my experience. I'm what called casual raider, but I saw a lot of heroic/mythic modes, completed few raid tiers and saw most bosses. Bosses now have few pages of just spell descriptions. Back then every boss had 2-3 abilities, may be 5. Lich King had few phases and comparable may be to Skorpyron, but it was the hardest boss ever. My attention is not limitless and I'm pushing its limits right now, I have difficulty tracking few boss timers, my abilities/cooldowns, and getting attention what happens, it wasn't the case with old raids.

On the other hand it was quite a game before raid started. I had to get defence cap, I had to get hit cap, I had to get good balanced raid comp (sometimes even group comp inside raid). I had to prepare a lot of enchants/gems. Now it's mostly gone, you just stack best stats on gear, throw few enchants and jump in the raid.

I liked old system better. I'm not that counter-strike player with swift reflexes, I liked more strategic approach, but today raids are all about quick decisions.

[ImpTaimer]

Yea, I don't understand people talking about "addons" being a factor. I remember all the same addons back in the day that are there now. There's just more of them, but the mainstay UI/raiding addons always existed. CTRT anyone?

Don't forget that some guilds even create their own addons and don't share them. Also non-US guilds (especially Russian/Chinese) are notorious for using thirdparty "addons", bots, and account-sharing so I never valued their success to begin with. "Look at me, I'm the top <insert class> because my guild is full of cheaty fucks that funnel me gear. No need to play 24hrs of the day to farm materials or gold."

Addons (and bots) have always been a problem with WoW. And that's the Dev's fault for not having active involvement in the player community. When was the last time anyone saw a real GM in-game?

[Zigrifid]

People are getting better , here is a video from nostalrius which is a blizzard like server

People actually learn 2 play between now and 12 years ago

[alturic]

Don't forget that some guilds even create their own addons and don't share them. Also non-US guilds (especially Russian/Chinese) are notorious for using thirdparty "addons", bots, and account-sharing so I never valued their success to begin with. "Look at me, I'm the top <insert class> because my guild is full of cheaty fucks that funnel me gear. No need to play 24hrs of the day to farm materials or gold."

Addons (and bots) have always been a problem with WoW. And that's the Dev's fault for not having active involvement in the player community. When was the last time anyone saw a real GM in-game?

Seeing a GM in game was far and few between even back when they used to sometimes pop up. There's really just no need to draw the attention when 9/10 things rarely require an actual GM involvement and the things (being stuck, etc) that start to take up the bulk of ticket you introduce some tech to auto-move people, etc.

[vsb]

Yeah. The problem is: M+ is bullshit. You can't deny that it's somewhat absurd that you basically have to ride a trike backwards, balancing an apple on your head, reciting Shakespeare while trying to burp and yawn at the same time just in order to have some kind of actual gameplay in 5 mans. It's ridiculous. M+ is a weekly sideshow for those who care. What matters is that ALL of other 5 man content is so trivial that it borders on dysfunctional, and that's just an inacceptable state of affairs. The scaling is completely out of control and M+ are not even remotly a solution.

I don't give a shit about clearing M+++ so I can get to M++++++ only to progress to M+++++++++ and fuck around with it all week. A lot of people don't. They also don't expect to bang their head against the wall in a M+20 5 man. I'd argue that most moderate players never asked for challenge mode nonsense, and just wanted 5 mans to be somewhat more interesting long-term, and have some substance in terms of gameplay. Cata did great in both regards.

We had interesting dungeons in the past and now they're artificially isolated in a nonsensical system that's rendered all the rest of the content completely useless.
Not being able to queue is another big problem, and has proven to only have a massively negative impact. The truth of the matter is: there's just no compelling 5 man content in the game, whereas in the past, there was. M+ in that regard isn't the miraculous solution it's made out to be, it's a failure.

You also need to look at it historically. In Cata, you could do interesting dungeons at your heart's desire. Now you're seriously limited and all ouf a sudden have to deal with some silly ass timed mode no one ever asked for, gated behind some convoluted "key" system you never had to care in the past, and then ends up being so trivial that class roles lose any relevance. And then it' supposed to be this "better" new system.

Please.

I don't agree. Cata dungeons were a joke. I entered Cata heroics as soon as I dinged 85 with my friends in green/blue quest gear. It wasn't harder than M+15 now. After few days of gearing there were even easier. After 1 raid week there were the same joke like Wrath dungeons, you just move and aoe everything. They were not interesting for me except first week. Legion dungeons are just great, I'm playing them over and over and I'll do it for a long way. There were problems related to strict timers and I hate strict timers, but now this issue is resolved and I can do them relatively relaxed.

[Deleted]

Bosses are significantly harder. Addons are more than keeping up, extended PTR testing allows addons to be ready for the raid release and the top players have been playing this game for more than a decade. If Blizzard did not keep pruning the API it would have been possible by now to completely dictate the fight with addons.

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Let's not be that absolute. There were fairly complex fights in TBC and in Naxx, they were just fewer. Original Loatheb depended on a consumable rotation, original Four Horsemen required constantly shuffling multiple tanks, Kael'thas had a multitude of phases with very exact positioning, Teron Gorefiend had a single but very punishing mechanic that you could not idiot proof, Kalecgos required a lot of planning ahead.

Kalecgos and Teron were not hard at all. I know that because at that time I was still in a pretty casual guild until I changed guilds when we couldn't get ahead of Brutallus. And we Two-Shotted Teron, of course pre-nerf. Only because one people could fuck it up it does not mean the boss mechanic is hard at all because if the ghost hit the right people this boss was easy af.

And to be honest, something like Loatheb or original four horseman (the guild destroyer simply because the best guilds recruited every good geared warrior tank) are more of a bad design which lead to something like a hard feeling

It's probably just the addons. That's why sometimes Blizz even has to stop some useful addons as they became too powerful.

I would never say the players just became better. The amount of people doing terrible damage compared to their equip is meh.

[Deleted]

Players are infinitely better. It's not even comparable. The top tier raiders of vanilla are comparable to normal mode raiders of today.

[Belisaurio]

For me, the old bosses will be the hardest bosses in WOW. And I have reasons to say that:
People see the dificult of bosses only in the skill that you need to stomp them, ignoring all other type of things that can affect the fight:
-Gearcheck: The typical boss that stomps people without X ilvl or type of gear.
-Progression bosses. Bosses that required some previous quests to unlock something to beat them (attunements, quest in the fight itself, quests that helps killing the boss faster, etc...).
-Bosses that required an unconvencional rooster to beat them (from 2-3 tanks to 4 tanks! heh!).
-Bosses that required something diferent than just your ordinary raid-gear (for example, resists/potion resists/unconvencional crafting items) to beat them.

People ignore all that shit, I know. The "new dificult" is how many of your raid-mates can learn the tactics of the mini-game, and after that, it becomes in the optimal dps/healing numbers. Not a bad thing, it promotes the skillful, but it's the only "thing" to care about.

[vsb]

What addons are you talking about? I'm using DBM and it was in the game for years. It's just bard with boss abilities, nothing fancy. WekAuras? Well, I'm using it, but I used TMW back in the days and it doesn't differ. I could make my own addon easily, WA doesn't bring anything new, you just track some buffs, I would even say WA wasn't needed back then, because rotation was much simpler for most classes. If anything, many addons are not working now, because Blizzard intentionally breaks them, so in the past addons actually were more powerful. Most of players I know don't even use any addons but DBM.

[ImpTaimer]

Seeing a GM in game was far and few between even back when they used to sometimes pop up. There's really just no need to draw the attention when 9/10 things rarely require an actual GM involvement and the things (being stuck, etc) that start to take up the bulk of ticket you introduce some tech to auto-move people, etc.

Attention is a compete non-issue. By far the most pathetic excuse a developer could have to not moderate their own game. That just reflects on the attitude of the developers. Then again devs have admitted they don't even always play Live versions of the game and just internal sim. Or worse, play the game on a tablet exclusively...

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What addons are you talking about?

All of them.