Overall, was Survival a failure?

[Doffen]

For whom? The 1% of competitive Bleeding Rift Raiders?

Well the numbers I took was from normal/heroic logs. Not really 1% hardcore raiders!

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like 90% of the people I've known that play Hunter, played it for the Pet, not the Ranged aspect.

Yeah I could have added that as well of course, but it was about ranged vs melee, not "sniper" MM vs Beastmasters

I personally dislike pets, Lone Wolf 4 life!

[Jujudrood]

As others have said, it failed because it's melee in a melee-heavy game where its counterparts are both ranged and have done/are doing equal to better numbers while being ranged and being able to handle a lot more mechanics/situational awareness/etc.

You can't compare Surv to Arms/Fury or the three Rogue specs; it's apples to oranges.
Both warrior and rogue are melee only, so the variety in their specs played does vary based on output; they will be melee regardless.
Hunters, however, would need to see a serious spike in Surv damage to get people to switch because a) they have always played as ranged and like it that way, and b) ranged is superior in terms of mobility (esp BM, who can literally jump the entire time and perform the same) and overall raid utility due to the need to soak ranged stacks of shit or stand somewhere/do something specific.
Basically, ranged has always been preferred in raids due to oversaturation in melee, and Hunters, along with Mages and Locks, have always been range/range/range.

There are plenty of melee out there, plenty of specs from which to choose.
Surv going melee was a fun idea, but it plays out horribly in the grand scheme of things.
Without getting a bump that makes it perform 5-10% better than its ranged counterparts, it will continue to be 'that spec for shits n gigs' and not a serious raiding/M+ spec.
Even then, I still don't see a ton of people flocking to it.
I mean, it's fun to play, arguably more so than the other two, but it's just not comparable overall.

[Montegomery]

I don't think the melee vs ranged comparison is particularly meaningful. When it comes down to it what makes spec popular or unpopular is fundamentally a question of how fun it is to play, and how competitive it is.

The problem with Survival is that it's not particularly competitive, and at the same time it's not particularly accessible. If you don't have the right gear (i.e. a lot of haste gear with a respectable iLvl, plus Convergence of Fates) the spec is fairly awful to play, and even with the right gear the results are lackluster. I love the idea of it and dabbling with it, but it needs more work before anyone but a few diehards gives it a second thought.

[Blackspiral]

I wouldn't say the new Survival is a complete failure. It can put out good numbers and has a nice concept and style to it. I've messed around on it a bit, and don't mind it. But I have other melee toons so I never played it seriously.

The main issue is with the reaction and acceptance by the community in addition to Hunter players. Many didn't want a Melee spec, some did want it. In a game already over saturated with Melee DPS, adding yet another to compete for spots, gear, dev, attention, etc caused quite a stir.
I am interested in seeing how Blizz keeps Survival afloat moving forward, or if we will see another revamp or spec identity change with it as we move along to another expansion

[Bepples]

put SV in the top 5 dps specs in game and watch it get played.

Most specs in the game do not need to numerically overpower everything else in order to be played by more than 2% of their class.

[reimmi2016]

SV has received 0 attention other than "increased the damage of abilities by x%" for a long time now. On top of that SV is still at the bottom of meters for anything.

I think we can assume it is once again getting the treatment it got in HFC, where they left it dead in the ditch for the entire HFC progress/farm because they didn't want people to get too attached to it when it was going to be turned into a melee spec in Legion.

with how little attention its been getting, they might be cutting their losses and redesign it back to ranged or something, next expansion.

[Kissthebaby]

SV has received 0 attention other than "increased the damage of abilities by x%" for a long time now. On top of that SV is still at the bottom of meters for anything.

I think we can assume it is once again getting the treatment it got in HFC, where they left it dead in the ditch for the entire HFC progress/farm because they didn't want people to get too attached to it when it was going to be turned into a melee spec in Legion.

Well said! This guy gets it.

[Doffen]

Most specs in the game do not need to numerically overpower everything else in order to be played by more than 2% of their class.

Sub rogues and arms warrior pre 7.2/7.2.5. See the massive increase in parses whn their damage got buffed alot. There are similar examples.

Don't have to go further than our two other specs to see how important damage is for spec-representation. Between BM and MM, in EN for examples, the ratio of how many that played MM vs BM and how it changed to complete opposite later on in Nighthold.

Damage trumphs gameplay so much when it comes to raiding, that people play a spec they hate just to do better damage.

[grexly75]

Why don't they give us back MoP suvival? It was perfect in my opinion.

The problem is that pre Legion survival was not that much different to BM or MM.. So they tried to have something different, problem is that it really didn't work since there are better melee classes..

[MiseryIndex]

You could buff the tits off of Survivals damage until it surpassed everyone, and small guilds like mine that struggle to constantly have a roster of 20 for mythic raiding would still have no survival hunters because everyone's playing a melee. Adding a melee spec at the same time as the introduction of Demon Hunters was just a bad idea. One of our hunters actually enjoyed playing Survival, but you know what happened? "We need you to go ranged for X boss, we don't have enough to deal with mechanics smoothly". I have no idea what it's like for cutting edge guilds, but as someone who has been playing since Vanilla and raiding since Tempest Keep, there has never been a time when you weren't hurting for ranged.

[Kibu]

You could buff the tits off of Survivals damage until it surpassed everyone, and small guilds like mine that struggle to constantly have a roster of 20 for mythic raiding would still have no survival hunters because everyone's playing a melee. Adding a melee spec at the same time as the introduction of Demon Hunters was just a bad idea. One of our hunters actually enjoyed playing Survival, but you know what happened? "We need you to go ranged for X boss, we don't have enough to deal with mechanics smoothly". I have no idea what it's like for cutting edge guilds, but as someone who has been playing since Vanilla and raiding since Tempest Keep, there has never been a time when you weren't hurting for ranged.

I can assure you if they overbuff Survival or any spec for that matter, top guilds will overstack the shit out of that class. There are no sentiments when you go for world firsts.

[MiseryIndex]

I can assure you if they overbuff Survival or any spec for that matter, top guilds will overstack the shit out of that class. There are no sentiments when you go for world firsts.

You mean guilds that have the rosters to support switching specs out so they have enough ranged to deal with unignorable mechanics? Yes, I'm sure they would.

[threads]

The problem is that pre Legion survival was not that much different to BM or MM.. So they tried to have something different, problem is that it really didn't work since there are better melee classes..

that's just because every spec generated and spent focus in pretty much the same way. if they brought back MoP SV now it'd be different enough from the other 2.

[Deleted]

Sub rogues and arms warrior pre 7.2/7.2.5. See the massive increase in parses whn their damage got buffed alot. There are similar examples.

Don't have to go further than our two other specs to see how important damage is for spec-representation. Between BM and MM, in EN for examples, the ratio of how many that played MM vs BM and how it changed to complete opposite later on in Nighthold.

Damage trumphs gameplay so much when it comes to raiding, that people play a spec they hate just to do better damage.

Completely right..

I would 100% switch to Survival if it was performing 10-20% or so better then MM/BM even with its poor/clunky rotation and I am not in a bleeding edge guild either.. But for me and a lot of people numbers and improving every week matters.. what's the main thing to keep going raiding after progression? Loot, playing with who I like and logs/improving every week for me anyway..

[Deleted]

I think the biggest issue was making Surv melee instead of BM.

When you think about BM's in WoW, what comes to mind? The most iconic BM and arguably hunter, is Rexxar. And Rexxar dual wields melee, befriends wild animals, doesn't just use pets as a meat shield while standing a safe distance away yelling orders. No, he joins his beasts in combat, and fights with them.

That goes so well with the theme of BM that I wonder why Blizzard didn't use it.

On top of all that, in Vanilla Surv already had abilities named after animals like "Raptor Strike" and "Mongoose Bite," but they clearly fit BM more if you think about it(imitating your beasts in combat). When you think of BM, you think of someone who spends alot of time with animals and befriends them. Imitating them in combat sounds way more of a BM's niche than Survival's.

Imagine this: What if you had one ability which completely changed depending on what type of beast is active? That would go so well with the theme of BM's.

Surviva should be thematically all about explosives, guns, traps, poisons, and things of that nature. It's fine to take materials from animal and use them as a weapon, but imitating animals is more of a BM's niche imo(though some exceptions are allowed - it would just be cool to be able to use a poison attack if you summon a snake).

Surival is all about, y'know, survivability in the wild. The best way to survive is to make sure there is a fair distance between you and your enemy. Rushing into melee kinda goes counter-intuitive against the theme of survival.

I still hope they would change it, I'd love to go dual-wield melee with my beasts in combat and I like dual-wield anyway much more than 2h in this case.

[Deleted]

I think the biggest issue was making Surv melee instead of BM.

When you think about BM's in WoW, what comes to mind? The most iconic BM and arguably hunter, is Rexxar. And Rexxar dual wields melee, befriends wild animals, doesn't just use pets as a meat shield while standing a safe distance away yelling orders. No, he joins his beasts in combat, and fights with them.

That goes so well with the theme of BM that I wonder why Blizzard didn't use it.

On top of all that, in Vanilla Surv already had abilities named after animals like "Raptor Strike" and "Mongoose Bite," but they clearly fit BM more if you think about it(imitating your beasts in combat). When you think of BM, you think of someone who spends alot of time with animals and befriends them. Imitating them in combat sounds way more of a BM's niche than Survival's.

Imagine this: What if you had one ability which completely changed depending on what type of beast is active? That would go so well with the theme of BM's.

Surviva should be thematically all about explosives, guns, traps, poisons, and things of that nature. It's fine to take materials from animal and use them as a weapon, but imitating animals is more of a BM's niche imo(though some exceptions are allowed - it would just be cool to be able to use a poison attack if you summon a snake).

Surival is all about, y'know, survivability in the wild. The best way to survive is to make sure there is a fair distance between you and your enemy. Rushing into melee kinda goes counter-intuitive against the theme of survival.

I still hope they would change it, I'd love to go dual-wield melee with my beasts in combat and I like dual-wield anyway much more than 2h in this case.

[grexly75]

that's just because every spec generated and spent focus in pretty much the same way. if they brought back MoP SV now it'd be different enough from the other 2.

Think more a case of all being ranged with slightly differing abilities but in the end all being the same..

[Gurg]

Well, i like the idea of Hunter's having a melee spec, should have it been Survival or BM is not something im gonna dwell over.

Watching overall design of survival, it looks fun, having a harpoon, play dead, flares, traps and.. fantasy.. behind it is quite nice.
But when you look under the hood, thats where the issues pop up.

Theres a lot of people saying that they like survival because its not dumbed down spec and you need some pre-planning and actually pay attention to DBM timers.

I personally find it way too much of "complex" for a semi-pro player (into progressive raiding, but taking its time), so for most of WoW population.
Theres so many things to manage with short term buffs/debuffs thats, compared to, lets say a warrior or AA DH its really a nutshell, not to say "laughable matter."
Button bloat is simply too big compared to ANY melee spec in the game, and on top of that were dependent on "pet mechanics" which arent working always as they should.
Simply put, all other melee spec do far more for less effort.

I like the idea that we can bring some party stuff trough our pets (lust/bRess) and that we can switch to ranged spec if needed, but button bloat and pet issues really needs to be looked at.
Its second .5 patch and over the course of expansion not much has changed for survival coregameplay. Even so a lot of people provided a feedback stating that SV needs to be looked at, blizzard did nothing except damage buffs. This lead me to believe that Blizzard it self is not sure what to do with us any more, so they just leaving it sideways "if we buff the shit out of it, maybe people will not QQ so much."

Having most of artifacts of melee specs (tanks and DPSs) capped, and on all Upgrade path filled in (circle path) i find survivals artifact most underwhelming, not to say almost useless one. There are so many fun artifact traits in most artifacts that you can hardly wait to get, while survivals is simply "meh."

[threads]

Think more a case of all being ranged with slightly differing abilities but in the end all being the same..

lock and mage both have 3 ranged specs so why does it matter for hunter?

[grexly75]

lock and mage both have 3 ranged specs so why does it matter for hunter?

Yes, but the thing is that though they are all ranged their abilities are vastly different between each other, but for some reason hunters seemed to be pretty much the same more so before Lone wolf was added and you could decide whether you wanted pets or not..

See with mages you have Fire, Frost and Arcane the difference here is that Frost is the only one that has a minion/pet.. Forget about locks as have not played mine in ages..

In the end I gather that Blizz wanted to change hunters, you will have to ask them why they did since they would no more than I do..